00:00:00: (gentle music)

00:00:03: They weren't killing the gorillas for the meat.

00:00:05: They weren't killing them for trafficking baby gorillas,

00:00:08: which is something that happened in the past.

00:00:11: They were just killing them.

00:00:13: And what we came to realize in the months that followed

00:00:17: was that they weren't killing the mountain gorillas

00:00:20: because of the mountain gorillas.

00:00:21: They were killing them because of their habitat.

00:00:24: And the value of that forest for charcoal

00:00:27: but to reach such high levels.

00:00:30: And that the only thing that was really preventing them

00:00:33: from cutting all the forest down

00:00:34: were the rangers who were protecting the forest

00:00:38: for the mountain gorillas.

00:00:39: - Welcome to the English edition of "Der große Neustart".

00:00:46: The German English podcast series by Zabilla Barton,

00:00:50: in which she talks to pioneering leaders

00:00:52: who inspired by the World Economic Forum's

00:00:54: great research initiative create revolutionary projects

00:00:58: that actually do make our world better, greener and fairer.

00:01:03: (gentle music)

00:01:06: - Today we turn our attention to one of the most vital

00:01:11: yet overlooked places on earth,

00:01:13: the Democratic Republic of Congo,

00:01:15: a country the size of Western Europe,

00:01:18: which in natural resources and cultural diversity,

00:01:22: yet shaped by decades of conflict and poverty.

00:01:25: At its heart lies Virunga National Park,

00:01:28: Africa's oldest national park

00:01:30: and the continent's most biodiverse protected area.

00:01:34: It is home to over 700 bird species

00:01:37: and one third of the world's endangered mountain gorillas.

00:01:41: But this extraordinary landscape

00:01:43: is also the front line of a complex struggle

00:01:46: where climate, conservation and conflict collide.

00:01:50: This Easter, Virunga celebrates its 100th anniversary,

00:01:54: a century of resilience and reinvention,

00:01:57: led today by a man whose vision has redefined

00:02:01: what conservation means in the 21st century.

00:02:04: My guest is Dr. Emmanuel de Maraud,

00:02:07: a Belgian prince by birth,

00:02:09: a field anthropologist by training

00:02:12: and director of Virunga since 2008.

00:02:15: Under his leadership, the park has become a global model

00:02:18: for how nature can become a foundation for peace and prosperity.

00:02:23: Through the Virunga Alliance,

00:02:26: his team has created 21,000 jobs,

00:02:30: brought renewable energy to 70% of Goma,

00:02:34: empowered 6,000 farmers

00:02:36: and supported over 1,600 businesses.

00:02:40: And now, this vision is expanding

00:02:42: into the Kewu Kinchasa Green Corridor,

00:02:46: which could become the world's largest protected tropical forest reserve.

00:02:51: Dr. de Maraud has survived an assassination attempt,

00:02:55: led his team through active conflict zones

00:02:57: and has been recognized internationally for his work,

00:03:01: honoured by King Philip of Belgium, Prince William,

00:03:04: Prince Albert of Monaco

00:03:06: and awarded by institutions,

00:03:09: including UNESCO and National Geographic.

00:03:12: This is a story of courage, clarity and the power of building peace for action.

00:03:18: Good morning, Emmanuel. I'm very honoured to welcome you.

00:03:23: Hello, Seville. Good morning and thank you for your kind invitation.

00:03:28: Before we talk about your wonderful park,

00:03:31: let's ground our listeners in the sheer scale and complexity

00:03:36: and relevance of the DRC.

00:03:40: Yes, exactly. The DRC is a region of the world

00:03:43: that suffers an extraordinary disparity

00:03:47: in terms of the importance of the region for many reasons

00:03:52: and the incredible deficit in attention that it receives,

00:03:58: again, at many levels.

00:04:01: It's a region that is known for its very troubled history

00:04:05: and its current difficulties tied to one of the most violent armed conflicts

00:04:13: in our generation, one of the most tragic periods in modern history,

00:04:19: which is barely mentioned in the media.

00:04:25: And so that amounts to an enormous problem

00:04:29: and also an enormous lost opportunity

00:04:32: because it's also a country of 100 million people.

00:04:36: Extraordinary communities, incredibly resilient,

00:04:39: incredibly hardworking and creative, and they're known for that.

00:04:44: There are unable to reach the enormous potential

00:04:50: that Congo could reach tied to its populations,

00:04:55: but also its incredibly rich resources,

00:04:58: both under the surface in terms of its incredible mineral resources,

00:05:04: but also its biological resources above the surface.

00:05:09: And that's, of course, what drew me to Congo many years ago

00:05:14: was the fact that there is nowhere on Earth quite like it

00:05:19: and an extraordinary life to be spent there

00:05:23: amongst the Congolese people who always made me feel very welcome.

00:05:30: So, yeah, all together an amazing country

00:05:33: that has always deserved better than the very difficult card of hands

00:05:38: that history has dealt with.

00:05:41: We probably have to put this in perspective for our listeners

00:05:47: somewhere else that actually it's the second largest country in Africa

00:05:52: with the size of Western Europe. Is that right?

00:05:56: That's right, yeah.

00:05:58: It's a vast country that stretches across almost the entire African continent

00:06:04: across the equator and contains within it over 80 different ethnic communities,

00:06:12: 80 different language groups.

00:06:15: So it's extraordinarily diverse as a country,

00:06:18: both in terms of its society and in terms of its resources.

00:06:23: So it's an incredible country.

00:06:27: Let's zoom now into the most extraordinary place, the Verunga National Park.

00:06:33: That is where you are.

00:06:34: And it's not just an UNESCO site,

00:06:37: it's the frontline of conservation, climate and conflict.

00:06:42: And it's your home. So tell us about it.

00:06:45: Yes, it's been home for 20 years now,

00:06:49: but it's somewhere that was always in my mind from as far back as I can remember

00:06:55: when I was a child. I was very fortunate to grow up in Eastern Africa.

00:07:00: And of course, as a child in Eastern Africa,

00:07:03: you invariably are affected by the extraordinary wildlife,

00:07:09: the extraordinary natural environment that we're so privileged to live in.

00:07:15: And the summit of that rich, incredibly rich natural environment

00:07:23: was this magical place in the center of Africa

00:07:27: that had these incredible species and extraordinary landscapes

00:07:32: from the summit of the ruins or the mountains,

00:07:36: these fabled mountains of the moon that were identified over 2000 years ago

00:07:43: as the mythical source of the Nile.

00:07:46: And down from those glaciers on the rinsorids through the moorlands,

00:07:53: down into the alpine forests,

00:07:55: and then into this incredible lowland tropical moist forest mass of the Congo Basin.

00:08:03: But also in Verunga, it's savannas and lakes and it's wetlands.

00:08:09: And then in the south, these back into the mountains,

00:08:13: but here where you can actually delve into the right into the center of the earth

00:08:18: with some of the most active volcanoes on earth.

00:08:21: And on the flanks of those volcanoes, this incredible wildlife,

00:08:26: and in particular the emblematic species that over the years

00:08:31: really defined Verunga National Park and really captured

00:08:36: at times the world's imagination, which are these extraordinary mountain gorilla populations,

00:08:44: these families of mountain gorillas that live on the flanks of the Verunga volcanoes.

00:08:50: But of course, Verunga is much, much more than that in terms of its wildlife.

00:08:56: We draw onto the mountain gorillas, but there are two other types of great apes,

00:09:03: so there's the lowland gorillas and the chimpanzees as well.

00:09:07: But then what makes it the most biodeversed protected area on earth,

00:09:14: which are the fact that it has over 708 species of birds,

00:09:20: more mammals, reptiles and amphibians than any protected area on earth.

00:09:26: And so that really makes it such an important national park to protect.

00:09:34: But of course, just as it's incredibly rich in biodiversity,

00:09:39: there's also this other side to it, which is that it is right at the heart of a region

00:09:47: that has suffered unparalleled violence over the past 30 years.

00:09:53: And that's really been expressed through a succession of civil wars.

00:09:59: The first started just after I arrived in 1993 after the horrific events in Rwanda in '94

00:10:11: with an escalation of that violence into eastern Congo.

00:10:15: And then a civil war, the AFDL civil war in '96, which spread across the whole of Congo,

00:10:25: followed by four other wars of which we're currently living through the most recent one.

00:10:32: And that's what's very particular about Varunga is that every single one of those wars

00:10:39: started in or around Varunga National Park.

00:10:43: And so just as it's extraordinary wildlife and biodiversity is what defines it,

00:10:49: it's equally perhaps more defined by the incredibly difficult tragic circumstances

00:10:57: in which it finds itself in recent years.

00:11:01: Yeah, yeah. Because you talk about it so strongly.

00:11:06: 30 years of armed conflict, six millions and more lives lost in such a beautiful, beautiful area.

00:11:16: I mean, the struggle of our lives is to work towards peace.

00:11:22: And I didn't speak just for myself.

00:11:25: I speak for the entire team and the entire community that I live within.

00:11:30: That's the single thing that we work towards.

00:11:34: So of course, we believe in the fact that one day Congo will reach its incredible potential.

00:11:43: And the most important aspect of that is peace.

00:11:47: If peace can be achieved, extraordinary things will happen in Congo.

00:11:53: And the issue is how, what's the pathway to peace?

00:12:01: And that really requires a real effort in trying to understand the deep rooted causes of violence,

00:12:10: of armed conflict, and ultimately of civil war.

00:12:14: And so that's a big part of the effort is to try and understand that and try and identify means of affecting that positively.

00:12:26: And the biggest effort in Varunga is to try and make contribution to that effort.

00:12:34: I remember hearing you in an interview many years ago,

00:12:39: you were describing that there are almost, I think you said, 18 armed militias in the area,

00:12:46: protecting the various resources from ivory, fish, oil, whatever.

00:12:52: How is the situation right now?

00:12:54: And so, unfortunately, that statistic is terrifying and has largely remained constant over the years.

00:13:04: What has changed is the scale of it.

00:13:07: So we still have a vast number of armed militias that have an overwhelming effect on the politics of the region.

00:13:19: And what has changed in recent years is that it's escalated to extraordinary proportions

00:13:27: and has caused enormous suffering to the population.

00:13:31: So there was a new war that started three years ago.

00:13:36: Like every other war, it began in Varunga National Park with the presence of an armed militia, the M23,

00:13:45: that moved into the neighboring territories and then gradually expanded to the situation we're in now,

00:13:57: where they've taken over the two biggest cities in the eastern provinces, Gohman and Bukavu,

00:14:05: and have spread quite significantly westwards.

00:14:08: What it's resulted in, with respect to our lives, is that half of the national park,

00:14:14: which is this vast national park spreading over 300 kilometers north to south,

00:14:21: half of it is under rebel control at the moment.

00:14:24: And so that leaves us with a very, very difficult situation to manage

00:14:30: and a tragic situation with respect to the populations living around the park.

00:14:36: And that's certainly made the work a lot more difficult and torturous in the last two years.

00:14:47: How many people live in and around the park?

00:14:51: So the Kivus, which are the provinces around Varunga National Park and the Ituri in the north,

00:14:59: are some of the most densely populated rural areas in Africa and the world, in fact.

00:15:06: The human population density around Varunga is higher than that of Belgium or the Netherlands.

00:15:12: And so what we have is about 11 million people who live within a day's walk.

00:15:19: So the definition that we would use for the local community around the park,

00:15:26: 11 million people live within about 20 kilometers of the power boundary.

00:15:30: And so it's an enormous population, which for us is in part a challenge

00:15:37: because these are people who have an enormous need for land,

00:15:43: their agricultural populations that live from farming,

00:15:48: and therefore need, you know, have a very real, very genuine need for access to land.

00:15:55: And yet we have this national park that represents 800,000 hectares of incredibly fertile land

00:16:05: that's been set aside for conservation so that the rest of the world can benefit

00:16:11: from the preservation of the world's biodiversity.

00:16:14: But at the same time, you have a situation where there are also enormous costs,

00:16:22: there are enormous benefits in preserving Varunga's biodiversity from a perspective of the whole of humanity.

00:16:31: But the cost is almost entirely being borne by the local people who can least afford it.

00:16:38: You've got the rest of the world, some many of whom are very affluent,

00:16:43: who enjoy the fact that the gorillas and the elephants are still being protected.

00:16:49: But it's the local people who have to pay the price.

00:16:51: And that's, you know, you can barely find a better definition of social injustice.

00:17:00: And that's where you have injustice.

00:17:03: Invariably, you get violence.

00:17:06: And so you start to begin to understand the sources of violence.

00:17:12: And that's, you know, that's what really brought us to the very, you know,

00:17:16: the very harsh reality that we're actually a part of the problem.

00:17:21: But at the same time, having 11 million people living around the park is also an extraordinary opportunity.

00:17:27: Because these are incredibly dynamic, really, in communities that have a huge untapped potential

00:17:34: for development, for developing their own resources, their own livelihoods.

00:17:40: And that's a real opportunity for the park to build out new ways of doing conservation

00:17:48: that didn't exist in the past, that have become much more mainstream today.

00:17:55: And infinitely more interesting in terms of how you manage a national park,

00:18:01: how you manage a protected area with the communities living around.

00:18:05: So that's really been, you know, it's been the subject of our work for the last 15 years.

00:18:12: You were saying when you live there and you live with the people and you learn

00:18:19: and you understand the source of violence, what is it that you understand?

00:18:26: So, I mean, it would be, you know, it would probably be arrogant of me to say that I understand

00:18:35: the sources of violence, but what we've been trying to do is to try and understand them over the years

00:18:41: in terms of how we've experienced them.

00:18:43: And one of the causes of violence is certainly the one I just mentioned when you've got

00:18:51: vast numbers of people who can no longer refer to the laws that govern their lives,

00:19:00: particularly with respect to natural resources, access to resources,

00:19:04: when they can no longer consider them as fair and just, then that's very,

00:19:10: it's a very dangerous situation because people lose trust in government institutions.

00:19:17: They lose reference to the laws that are there to preserve the peace, as it were.

00:19:26: And so that's, you know, that's perhaps the first and in many ways, the most important ingredient

00:19:33: to an escalation into violence and armed conflict.

00:19:38: But there are others as well.

00:19:40: One of them is precisely that.

00:19:44: It's an outcome which is the breakdown of rule of law and in particular,

00:19:52: the rule of law with respect to natural resources.

00:19:55: And when the illegal exploitation of natural resources becomes the dominant

00:20:01: economic activity in a society, then you get two outcomes, which are really the other two

00:20:10: deep rooted causes of violence and armed conflict.

00:20:14: One is when revenue streams start to appear and that are accessed by private armies,

00:20:23: by militias, armies that don't answer to the state authority.

00:20:28: They only answer to themselves.

00:20:30: So that's the first one, there's significant money available to finance these armed groups.

00:20:38: And then the other, and it's really a correlate, it's a, it's really an outcome of the same problem,

00:20:44: which is when public institutions begin to weaken very significantly.

00:20:51: And the main agent for weakening government institutions is corruption.

00:20:57: And of course, corruption is an outcome of the illegal exploitation of natural resources.

00:21:04: And so I'll always sort of refer back to the fact that Congo is just extraordinarily rich in natural resources.

00:21:11: And so the potential for these dynamics to develop is very, very high and very, very dangerous.

00:21:20: And so that's what's happened in the region around Varunga.

00:21:24: And it's useful just to look at the actual specifics of what I'm referring to.

00:21:29: You know, I think we've been talking about the theory quite a lot, but how does it translate on the ground?

00:21:35: Well, you know, there is around the city of Goma, a city of two million people on the edge of the park in the south.

00:21:43: You've got these very rich forests.

00:21:46: Most of those forests have been cleared for charcoal outside the park.

00:21:52: All that is left is the forests of the National Park.

00:21:56: And it's that charcoal that's drawn from the cutting down of the forest and the turning of those trees into charcoal

00:22:05: that's become the only source of domestic fuel for people living in the city.

00:22:11: They have nothing else and they can't survive without it.

00:22:15: That industry, because it's become illegal, because people are sourcing that charcoal from the National Park,

00:22:23: which is protected by law, it becomes an illegal activity and it becomes controlled by the armed militias.

00:22:32: And in particular, one armed militia, which is the FDLR, which is actually a Rwandan militia

00:22:39: that's considered responsible for the genocide in Rwanda in 1994.

00:22:46: It's a very, very serious problem and they generate it's estimated in excess of 40 million dollars

00:22:54: from their control of the trafficking of charcoal from the National Park.

00:23:00: And so there you have it.

00:23:02: You have that revenue stream that's perpetuating this armed group over the years.

00:23:08: People often ask, how is it possible that this terrible armed group is still present after 30 years?

00:23:16: Well, it's because they can generate so much money from the forest.

00:23:20: But just as they control the forest, the roads are controlled by the army and by other government institutions

00:23:28: that are complicit in the trafficking of charcoal to the city.

00:23:32: And so you then get the weakening of state institutions because they're involved in that same problem

00:23:40: of illegal exploitation of natural resources.

00:23:42: And so you have those two basic ingredients.

00:23:46: And then the third, of course, is that people have no choice.

00:23:49: They can't survive without domestic fuel.

00:23:53: And if they're prevented from accessing it, they risk massive food insecurity

00:24:00: and the effects of not being able to boil their water, which brings in waterborne diseases,

00:24:06: which threatens their children.

00:24:08: These are all perceived as problems tied to social justice of being able to access what are really their rights.

00:24:20: And so you've got all three ingredients that lead to the breakdown of rule of law

00:24:25: and ultimately to violence and civil war.

00:24:30: All of that makes it now even more remarkable if we go into what it is that you are doing.

00:24:39: You basically help the vision of creating peace through economic hope,

00:24:44: coming really alive and getting stronger.

00:24:48: So you introduced a new model and we are now talking about the creation of the Verunga Alliance.

00:24:58: How did it all begin and what is it that this alliance is doing?

00:25:05: Well, one could say it all began one evening in 2007 when we were in a camp up in the mountains

00:25:17: in the forests of the mountain gorilla sector, the McKenna sector of the park.

00:25:22: And we were decking in for the evening and working on, we'd been doing some work with the mountain gorillas.

00:25:33: And then just as night was falling, we heard a succession of gunshots in the distance

00:25:44: and it was coming from within the mountain gorilla sector.

00:25:49: So that was really worrying for us.

00:25:51: And so the first thing in the morning as soon as it was light, we organized a patrol

00:25:58: and walked for about an hour and then came across an absolutely horrific scene,

00:26:04: which was this massacre of this entire family of gorillas that we knew well, the Riddick family.

00:26:13: And some of them had been shot from very close up.

00:26:17: And it was tragic to see because they were habituated groups.

00:26:23: So they inherently trust humans when they come close,

00:26:28: which obviously enabled some people to come up and shoot the gorillas at a very close range.

00:26:36: And some of the females had infants that hadn't been killed and were still on the bodies of the mothers that had been killed.

00:26:47: And it was a terrible scene for us who lived for the protection of those mountain gorillas.

00:26:56: And then in the weeks that followed, other similar massacres happened.

00:27:01: And we very quickly realized that we were failing in our efforts to protect the park

00:27:08: and protect this species in particular.

00:27:11: And so that really led to a lot of reflection, a lot of analysis and trying to understand exactly what was going on

00:27:19: because they weren't killing the gorillas for the meat.

00:27:23: They weren't killing them for trafficking baby gorillas, which is something that happened in the past.

00:27:29: They were just killing them.

00:27:30: And what we came to realize in the months that followed was that they weren't killing the mountain gorillas

00:27:37: because of the mountain gorillas.

00:27:39: They were killing them because of their habitat and the value of that forest for charcoal

00:27:45: had to reach such high levels that the only thing that was really preventing them from cutting all the forest down

00:27:52: were the rangers who were protecting the forest for the mountain gorillas.

00:27:57: So by killing the mountain gorillas, they would discourage the last remaining protection that those forests were getting.

00:28:05: And of course, we analyzed that and realized that it was an industry worth tens of millions of dollars,

00:28:13: which is a small team of conservationists that was way beyond our ability to control.

00:28:20: We were way above our necks in this problem and we just weren't equipped to deal with a problem like that.

00:28:27: And really, at a personal level, it made me realize that all my training is that as an anthropologist and as a biologist,

00:28:35: which is just inadequate for overcoming a problem of that scale.

00:28:40: But we also realized that there were other similar problems elsewhere in the park.

00:28:44: The fishing on Lake Edward, this vast lake in the middle of the park, was worth about $62 million.

00:28:52: And 80% of that was illegal trafficking.

00:28:56: There were land invasions in the park by the militias and there were worth tens of millions of dollars.

00:29:03: All of that together created an illegal industry of over $170 million a year.

00:29:10: And that's really what we were up against.

00:29:12: And so what it made us realize is that we as conservationists alone were completely ill-equipped and inadequate in confronting problems on that scale.

00:29:21: And we needed to look beyond our profession, but in particular beyond our institution to the communities living around the park

00:29:31: and just see where it had gone so badly wrong over the years.

00:29:35: And that something like this could have been created under our noses and we hadn't even noticed it.

00:29:40: And so we completely changed our approach.

00:29:42: We started working with economists, with social development experts, with engineers,

00:29:51: and less and less with biologists and anthropologists like myself.

00:29:55: And completely changed the entire approach, the entire methodology of how we were managing the park.

00:30:03: But also tried to analyze what the alternatives were.

00:30:07: If there was $170 million being created from illegal trafficking,

00:30:13: what are the assets that we could draw on to out-compete an industry on that scale?

00:30:20: Because that was the only way we were going to confront it.

00:30:23: We couldn't use law enforcement alone.

00:30:26: It just wasn't either desirable or practical or feasible.

00:30:32: We needed an alternative to offer the communities that was more desirable to them.

00:30:42: And that's really when we started looking at the economic potential of the park in terms of the non-destructive assets.

00:30:53: And actually, that's really the remarkable nature of Runga is that those resources exist with a bit of creative imagination.

00:31:04: They suddenly become very obvious.

00:31:07: Tourism, of course, is one.

00:31:09: Tourism isn't just about the tourists.

00:31:12: It's about the jobs it creates, about the infrastructure that opens the region up to not just tourists, but also investors.

00:31:21: And that's why tourism is so important in Africa, is that it makes its potential realizable.

00:31:30: And then two other incredible sectors of the economy that could be developed without destroying the park.

00:31:38: One was energy.

00:31:40: It was a mountainous park with incredibly high rainfall.

00:31:44: So a whole network of streams that flow into rivers that become torrents are incredibly high in energy that can be readily transformed into electricity as the motor for a whole new economy.

00:31:59: You know, as an engine that could transform the economy in a way that is more effective, more powerful than the illegal trafficking of natural resources.

00:32:12: And then the third is really an outcome of that, which is we're dealing with a population that is perhaps 90 percent rural, 90 percent agricultural, but that really are unable to harness all the real value of their work because they produce agricultural products that are then exported.

00:32:40: And all the transformation of those products happen in neighboring or countries further afield.

00:32:47: And that's really where all the added value to those commodities are created.

00:32:52: And part of the reason why transformation doesn't happen in Congo is because there is no available energy for that transformation industry.

00:33:03: And suddenly it became clear that that was really a primary vocation of the National Park, just as it was to protect biodiversity for the whole humanity.

00:33:13: And there was this equally important opportunity to provide ecosystem services to the community in the form of electricity and investment from tourism and from the investors that it would bring into a whole new modern and green.

00:33:32: Agricultural transformation industry.

00:33:35: And so that's what we've been working on for the past 15 years with the community.

00:33:40: It's become a roughly three hundred million dollar investment.

00:33:45: It's created twenty one thousand jobs in the community.

00:33:50: And what's been really extraordinary about that is that, you know, we measure the energy generated by the parks rivers in terms of megawatts of electricity.

00:34:01: And every one of those megawatts of electricity, when it's made available to the community so that they can develop their own industries, every one of those megawatts creates between eight hundred and a thousand jobs.

00:34:15: But, you know, what we found was that the park generate over a hundred megawatts of electricity and therefore could create upwards of eighty thousand jobs around the park.

00:34:27: Now, we started looking at those jobs when they were created, talking to people, finding out what their stories were.

00:34:35: And eleven percent of those twenty one thousand jobs that we've been able to create are young men and women who have chosen to leave the armed groups and take on gainful employment through these opportunities provided by these new industries.

00:34:55: That, you know, the park has enabled.

00:34:58: And so suddenly we found ourselves with this incredibly compelling instrument for bringing peace and stability, you know, that was really governed by this formula of more energy drive into the community.

00:35:12: The more you get agricultural transformation and that creates jobs at a rate which we can measure.

00:35:21: And that becomes the most interesting way of overcoming armed conflict without bloodshed and a really deep rooted solution to the problem of violence.

00:35:34: So that that's really what we refer to when we talk about the Verunga Alliance.

00:35:39: It's this partnership with the community to enable them to control their own resources, control their own future by building the transformation industries.

00:35:50: That enable them to get the full value out of all of their work.

00:35:55: When we talk about the twenty one thousand jobs that have been created, where do they mainly work?

00:36:02: What do they do?

00:36:03: So we've worked across a whole number of areas and it's quite varied.

00:36:10: It's a difficult question to answer in a nutshell because it's complex.

00:36:16: But we've worked, we try and concentrate the effort on two things.

00:36:21: One is building up local enterprise, small businesses in the community.

00:36:26: And there you get a whole range of small businesses.

00:36:30: Sometimes they get referred to as barefoot businesses.

00:36:33: These are people working often out in the open on the side of the road doing carpentry or welding mechanics and so on.

00:36:43: And they're actually extraordinarily skilled jobs.

00:36:46: But they they don't have access to investments to be able to grow out their businesses.

00:36:51: And so what we did was to work out a scheme where we could use the electricity network, which is this really interesting.

00:37:01: You can build a really interesting picture of it, which is that you've got a natural network of rivers and streams flowing through the forest.

00:37:11: And they build up in power as they converge to a point.

00:37:18: And then it becomes an economic network that is really the mirror of that natural river network in the forest.

00:37:28: And that human network is, of course, a physical transmission of electricity down the power lines into the grids, power grids in the cities that we've built out.

00:37:41: And, you know, you've got these two networks that are the mirrors of each other.

00:37:45: And what they do is that they connect the forest's energy to what are now 50,000 homes and businesses in the cities and create a very real, a very financial interdependence between the human economic landscape and the natural ecosystems.

00:38:08: And so what that did was that it created a discussion both locally on the need to preserve that forest because it stabilizes the water flows.

00:38:20: And those stable water flows are what make the generation of electricity possible.

00:38:25: And now the livelihoods of over 21,000 families.

00:38:30: And those families become, you know, the best allies of the park for various reasons.

00:38:38: But it also created a whole discussion internationally.

00:38:42: And one of those discussions brought us into contact with Mohammed Yunus when he was passing through Nairobi a couple of years ago.

00:38:51: And I asked for 10 minutes of his time to discuss the whole issue of how do you bring financial services to people who are completely excluded from the formal banking sector because they're too poor to really be able to get through the doors of a bank.

00:39:07: And it was meant to be a 10 minute discussion because he's incredibly busy.

00:39:12: And it developed into a four hour discussion about his dream of achieving the three, what he refers to as the three zeros, which are zero unemployment, which is very important.

00:39:28: very important to ask, because it's the unemployment is one of the main drivers of violence. Zero

00:39:32: concentration of wealth, which is something that he feels very strongly about. I think

00:39:37: we're all increasingly sympathetic with that point of view.

00:39:42: And then the third, which is the zero net emissions. And it was something he said he

00:39:48: was really struggling with on how to tie financial services to the poor to the whole issue of

00:39:55: zero net emissions. And this model that was developing in Varunga offered an opportunity

00:40:00: to really test that. Could you drive financial services, a small business loan system to

00:40:10: the natural ecosystems and create that interdependence where one protects the other and vice versa.

00:40:19: And so we developed this idea of trying to test that idea of tying financial systems

00:40:26: to the forest and developed a joint venture with the Grameen Bank, of course, the greatest

00:40:32: institution there is in terms of microfinance. And so we now have Grameen Varunga, which

00:40:39: is a microfinance institution around Varunga National Park that's partly owned by the Grameen

00:40:44: Bank and that uses electricity as the medium for providing loans. So when you buy a kilowatt

00:40:54: hour of electricity, you can obtain a loan that is reimbursed with a small premium on

00:41:02: that electricity. And what's so interesting about it is that the cost of the kilowatt hour

00:41:09: of electricity of clean energy from the park plus the reimbursement of the loan amounts

00:41:16: to 22 cents for your kilowatt hour of electricity plus say 10 cents for reimbursing your loan

00:41:23: at 32 cents. The cost of a diesel generator is over 60 cents a kilowatt hour. So it always

00:41:32: costs you less to reimburse your loan than not to reimburse your loan because that would

00:41:40: mean going back to diesel generator, which is more expensive. And so you've overcome

00:41:44: one of the great challenges of financial exclusion, which is the inability for somebody

00:41:50: living in extreme poverty to provide a guarantee because being poor by definition, they have

00:41:57: nothing and they can't offer a guarantee on their loan. Now they don't need to offer

00:42:01: a guarantee because the model makes it cheaper to pay the loan and not to pay the loan and

00:42:07: that becomes your guarantee. So that was incredibly interesting as a hypothesis. And the second,

00:42:17: of course, was that the best proxy you have, the best correlate of business performance

00:42:24: is energy consumption in these small businesses and all that data was being collected anyway

00:42:30: by the energy company that we developed. And so you could get a due diligence analysis

00:42:35: done at no cost for these small businesses, which is of course, the other cause of financial

00:42:42: exclusion is that it's so expensive to do due diligence on a small business that's asking

00:42:47: for a very small loan of say $200. If your due diligence process costs $1,000, you're

00:42:54: not going to do it. The bank, for obvious reasons, can't afford to evaluate these businesses.

00:43:03: And so we'd overcome that problem as well by tying the loan to clean energy from these

00:43:11: natural ecosystems. And so that's become in the last couple of years a $5 million investment

00:43:19: in small businesses, over 1,500 small businesses that have received these loans. And that's

00:43:24: part of the reason why we've created 21,000 jobs. And so it's really tied into those natural

00:43:32: ecosystems and it's performing really well. It's growing quite fast. So that's really

00:43:37: exciting. The other aspect, so much to talk about, I'm sorry. But the other aspect is

00:43:51: these industries that we've been able to develop in the value chains that have been coerced

00:43:58: by the trafficking system, so the armed groups that control certain commodities and where

00:44:06: we've managed to build industries that bypass those illegal networks and provide an alternative.

00:44:13: A really important one to us is cocoa. Cocoa is obviously the primary ingredient for chocolate

00:44:19: and everyone likes chocolate. It gives you a good feeling. But at the same time, it has

00:44:28: a very, very sinister pathway to your stomach, which is that in regions like eastern Congo,

00:44:38: it's a very, very high value commodity that attracts the armed militias. And one in particular,

00:44:45: the ADF, which is a very violent militia in the north of the park, in the north of the

00:44:54: province. So a militia that came from Uganda, it's considered to be a jihadist militia,

00:45:02: although it's more complex than that. And one of their main drivers is the illegal exploitation

00:45:10: of the cocoa production systems. And what they will typically do is go into communities

00:45:18: just before the harvest and kill people so that the communities flee just after the harvest.

00:45:25: And then they'll go in often with enslaved labor and just recover the whole harvest and

00:45:31: traffic it, smuggle it into Uganda. And it gets sold on the European market, on the US

00:45:37: market, and through what are considered to be respectable brokers as certified, often

00:45:45: fair trade and organic cocoa, but Ugandan cocoa. And so it's a terrible situation in

00:45:54: which the laundering of this Congolese cocoa and its fraudulent certification as Ugandan

00:46:04: cocoa conceals the fact that there are terrible crimes committed along that value chain. And

00:46:13: the way around that, obviously, is to create a much more resilient, much more robust Congolese

00:46:20: value chain. But that needs to be economically viable. And so to achieve that, you need to

00:46:28: industrialize. It's the only way of doing it is to really build out the whole cocoa

00:46:33: transformation industry in Congo. And so what we've done is that we've worked in those

00:46:38: communities and encouraged them to build out their own fermentation centers in the communities

00:46:46: that are safe. And so we bring the rangers in also with the army and build out systems

00:46:53: where it's the community that structure their own security. And they call the army when

00:46:57: they need the army. It's not the army going in and causing trouble. But when they feel

00:47:03: threatened and vulnerable, they have the technology, these simple panic buttons that we've distributed

00:47:10: where they're able to call out and support and prevent these massacres from happening.

00:47:16: But at the same time, they no longer ferment and dry the cocoa in their fields, and they're

00:47:22: able to bring it to a safe fermentation center, get a much higher quality of cocoa and then

00:47:31: transfer it safely to a cocoa mass transformation plant and what we now have a chocolate factory.

00:47:42: And so we started making chocolate, very high quality chocolate within those communities

00:47:49: and then exporting that at much, much higher value, which has made the legal cocoa value

00:47:55: chains much more profitable, much more interesting to those communities. And so there's a lot

00:48:01: of, there's a big cocoa mass transformation plant that's now under construction with the

00:48:06: support of the European Union, which the park is building, which will produce 30,000 tons

00:48:13: of cocoa mass, which is part process chocolate as it were, which the European market really

00:48:22: needs as a cocoa deficit on the global market. But 30,000 tons of cocoa mass represents

00:48:31: 60% of the entire cocoa production of Congo at the moment. So the potential is amazing.

00:48:40: But these are profitable businesses. They're not handouts to the Congolese people. These

00:48:47: are the Congolese people developing highly profitable businesses that can be invested

00:48:53: in on a level playing field. So it's a really gratifying process that's taking place around

00:49:01: the park where these illegal trafficking networks are sort of, be it the illegal charcoal that's

00:49:06: being replaced by clean energy or the illegal cocoa smuggled into Uganda that's being replaced

00:49:14: by processed, transformed cocoa on the legal market. And so that's really what it amounts

00:49:25: to in terms of the tangible changes that are happening on the ground.

00:49:32: Out of those many, many important things you said right now, two things. You mentioned

00:49:38: the European Union. Do you think this is part of recreating value chains? That you say

00:49:47: the market is or a lot of the products go to the European Union, that the European Union

00:49:53: then has to make sure that the production happens in a safe and fair environment? And

00:50:03: question two would be, you talked about the army who's coming in to protect. How efficient

00:50:10: is that at the moment?

00:50:11: Well, I'll start with the second question because it's a really important one. The army

00:50:19: is like many institutions in Congo, it's in a fragile state at the moment. But what that

00:50:25: can result in is enormous problems in terms of the potential for misconduct leading to

00:50:36: violations of people's basic rights and acts that are deeply regrettable on the part of

00:50:46: unsupervised or inadequately supervised and trained military personnel. And that's certainly

00:50:52: a part of the problem. But it is a problem that can be managed if it's taken very seriously,

00:50:59: which it needs to be. The way we've worked it is that for 15 years we've been working

00:51:05: on building up the discipline and the sense of professionalism amongst park rangers who

00:51:12: are one of the government services. It's the service that I work for. And so I'm directly

00:51:18: responsible for their acts. And it's obviously critically important that they always behave

00:51:25: with the highest levels of professionalism, especially when they're operating in vulnerable

00:51:32: communities. That's the most important aspect of our work is that that's done appropriately.

00:51:41: And the same goes for the army. But the truth is that given the state of violence in the

00:51:51: eastern provinces, you can't avoid the role of the army in restoring peace and restoring

00:52:01: the rule of law in those regions. But the army is not sufficiently equipped at this

00:52:05: stage. And so we need to work on that progressively. What we found is that perhaps the most valuable

00:52:14: tool in achieving that is the community itself. So the community where we lived in a few years

00:52:21: ago, which is a town called Mutoanga on the edge of the park, was very, very badly affected

00:52:26: by these militia attacks, these ADF attacks on the community. In the first three months

00:52:33: of 2021, there were six attacks and 120 people were killed in that community. And this is

00:52:40: the town we were living in 60% of the town fled to the neighboring city of Benny. And

00:52:47: it was in a real crisis. And we held a whole number of meetings with the community that

00:52:54: was left and discussed this issue of how to resist these attacks. And their response was,

00:53:02: well, the army just isn't up to the job. And so what we suggested was building a reinforced

00:53:09: position for the army where they can be contained, but called out when they're needed. And they

00:53:14: have the necessary resources to be able to do that. And we figured that if we built what

00:53:19: we call a forward operating base, which is a reinforced barracks for the army, and that

00:53:24: they stay in there, unless they're called out by the community, then we have some potential

00:53:31: to strengthen the protection of that community. And so we suggested that to them and figured

00:53:39: that it would take us about six weeks to build that base. When we came the next day to start

00:53:46: the construction, 4,000 people from the community came and we built the whole thing in 24 hours.

00:53:53: It was perhaps the most encouraging day of my 30 years in Congo. It was absolutely extraordinary.

00:54:03: And the ADF attacked that position that night. And three of our people who were protecting

00:54:11: it were killed. And it was a very, very difficult moment. But since then, so since April 2021,

00:54:23: there hasn't been a single victim in that town. And all the 60 people, the 60% of the

00:54:29: population that fled have come back. And the whole economy of that town has increased very

00:54:36: significantly. So it's been an amazing journey for that community. And the trust and the

00:54:44: relationship in the government authorities has really been transformed. They're working

00:54:50: together. But the authority really lies with the community, with the population. The army

00:54:57: doesn't leave the barracks unless they're called out. And the time for an intervention when there's

00:55:02: a massacre has reduced from about six hours on average to less than 20 minutes. And so the

00:55:09: response time is very, very rapid because the park provides the vehicles, provides the rations

00:55:16: and the medical support to the army so that they remain disciplined and contained within

00:55:24: the FOB. So that's really what's created the model, as it were, for how to address the

00:55:34: immediate causes of violence. And in part, I think your question about how do you work

00:55:41: with the army? It's not easy. It's a very, very difficult institution to work with. But

00:55:48: there are solutions if you really engage with the community.

00:55:52: And your second question, I've forgotten. What was it again?

00:55:57: There was a second question. If we rebuild the value chain and trying to create a better

00:56:05: life for everybody, you were saying that the EU is a big market for you. And in return, the EU

00:56:13: helps you finance your project and makes it more secure and so on. Is that...

00:56:20: Yeah, is that...

00:56:22: Yeah, is that a big deal? It is. Yeah. I mean, the European Union has been the biggest investor

00:56:29: of all by quite a significant margin on the work that we do and have been not just incredibly

00:56:36: supportive but very consistent over the last 40 years. They started supporting Brunger in 1988.

00:56:42: And that's incredibly unusual. I don't think there's any program, certainly not an environmental

00:56:48: program that's had such significant and such constant support from the European Union.

00:56:53: The reason it's so important is that peace cannot be built on a three-year project cycle.

00:56:59: It's a generational challenge that needs that consistency and that commitment.

00:57:05: So that's what we've had from the European Union. The US have been quite supportive,

00:57:14: but they don't have that same level of constant commitment. In fact, they suspended all of our

00:57:20: financing in January for reasons that you probably know about. But the European Union has doubled

00:57:28: down this year at a time when we need it most. We're real proponents of trade, not aid. We're

00:57:38: trying to build systems that work with the European market and work in response to the needs of the

00:57:47: European market and in response to the needs of the Congolese economy. But of course, without that

00:57:54: initial subsidy from the European Union, we could never have got the foundations in place to be able

00:58:02: to build this economic infrastructure around Brunger. And so we were able to benefit from very

00:58:10: significant grant funding to get it all going. And then now we've also been the first

00:58:17: successful investment from a, well, what was a European investment bank? It was the British

00:58:25: initially who chose to invest through DFI funding through Development Finance. There hasn't been

00:58:33: that kind of financing since 1985 in East Hong Kong. And so that's one of our real

00:58:39: prides is to have started to normalize investment into that region, which normal investors are very

00:58:48: risk averse and very nervous about penetrating that market. But it's absolutely essential to get

00:58:59: wealth back to the people of Eastern Congo to get that normalized investment to start working again.

00:59:07: And so that's what the European Union have enabled us to do is to create the foundations so that

00:59:12: other forms of investment, blended investment can start to happen. What's also happening is that

00:59:18: European private sector is beginning to invest in spite of the fact that there's a war. So we've

00:59:23: got five or six major primarily agro-industrial players who are beginning to invest in those

00:59:32: factories in joint ventures with the park. So the park takes care of the local risk, as it were.

00:59:40: It creates the enabling environment for those investments to work,

00:59:44: and they bring in expertise. And that's working incredibly well. But there are always challenges

00:59:52: along the way. And some of them are caused by the European systems, as it were. We recently had

01:00:00: a bit of a crisis because the certification processes are quite daunting, quite challenging

01:00:09: to achieve. And one of them is the organic certification of cocoa. Most of the European

01:00:16: purchase of Congolese cocoa is in the organic sector. And that needs to be certified in a way

01:00:24: that's compliant with European Commission regulations. And so there are auditing firms

01:00:30: that are authorized to do that, of which there are four that have been authorized for Congo.

01:00:37: Three of them refuse to come to Eastern Congo because of security, because of the upsurge in

01:00:44: armed conflict. And the fourth can feel the fact that they were no longer compliant with

01:00:51: their requirements to the European Commission, were no longer able to carry out those audits,

01:00:57: but they kept that quiet for almost a year. And then the cocoa actors in Eastern Congo only found

01:01:05: out about a week before the certificates expired. What that effectively does is that it delivers

01:01:13: 40,000 Congolese families into the hands of the armed groups, because they can no longer

01:01:21: sell their cocoa on the European market. They have nowhere else to sell it,

01:01:26: other than to sell it at a massively reduced price to traffickers who give it to the armed groups,

01:01:33: who smuggle it into Uganda, who are able to fraudulently recertify as Ugandan cocoa and sell

01:01:41: it on the European market that way. So it's an incredibly twisted problematic issue. And actually

01:01:50: there we were able to work with the Commission very, very fast. So the several directorates

01:01:58: within the Commission really engaged with us on that problem and really shook up these auditing

01:02:05: firms. And we were able to find one, a German auditing firm who was willing to, even though

01:02:12: they'd never been to Eastern Congo, in the space of a few days, build up the expertise and send a

01:02:18: team as long as the National Park was there to provide them with security and logistics. And

01:02:26: so we were able to get that to happen in the space of a couple of weeks and start the auditing process

01:02:32: so that those 40,000 families don't lose their livelihoods. And so that's really how it happens.

01:02:39: You know, it's those little details that make the difference in terms of rebuilding an economy,

01:02:44: rebuilding a society. But they're difficult, stressful moments that really need to be sorted

01:02:51: out. But it's 40 years of working with the Commission that really enables us to solve those

01:02:57: ways, to cut through all the red tape and to come to a solution very quickly.

01:03:02: You mentioned earlier about that one solution to it all could be scaling the model. And you

01:03:11: presented together with the DRC government earlier this year in Davos the idea of the

01:03:20: green corridor. So which is basically the vision is to create the largest protected

01:03:26: tropical forest reserve on earth. Can you give us a status quo of how fast this vision has gone?

01:03:36: Is it status quo is the wrong word because it's moving so incredibly fast.

01:03:39: And it really started about a year ago. There was some discussions amongst different people

01:03:49: who got very, very interested in this whole idea. There was discussion between King Philip of Belgium

01:03:54: and the Congolese head of state about what was happening in Varunga. And that drew a certain

01:04:00: amount of attention to what was happening around Varunga. And the DRC president sent

01:04:06: a team in October last year. So not that long ago to try and understand what was going on.

01:04:13: Because they suddenly heard something was happening in the midst of this very difficult

01:04:18: region that was really only associated with bad news. Suddenly there were these developments

01:04:25: that sounded interesting. So he sent a team. And it was the one person within that team was

01:04:33: incredibly really very dynamic and very positive thinking person who started a discussion with us

01:04:41: about an idea that was really drawn from the fact that we had come to realize that

01:04:51: there was a major development happening within Congo, which was the Chinese Belt and Road Initiative,

01:04:58: of which one project was the Kissingani to Benny, which basically is Kissingani to Varunga.

01:05:07: The city of Kissingani is right in the middle of Congo. And it's at the

01:05:12: upper end of the Congo River, the upper end of the navigable part of the Congo River.

01:05:18: And what the Chinese Belt and Road Initiative project was going to do was build a road all

01:05:24: the way through the Turi to Varunga, which really effectively drives an economic corridor through

01:05:35: the heart of the Congo Basin, all the way through the Turi, from the east all the way through the

01:05:42: Turi to Kissingani and then 1400 kilometers down the Congo River to Kinshasa and effectively cuts

01:05:51: the Congo Basin in half. The Congo Basin is regarded, considered now to be the most important

01:05:59: terrestrial asset on earth with respect to climate change. It's the only tropical forest mass that

01:06:08: absorbs more carbon dioxide than it emits. It's critical to the whole climate effort.

01:06:14: And suddenly you've got this road, which has the potential to drive a whole number of feeder

01:06:21: roads and to develop the tributary rivers going into the Congo River in a way that could potentially

01:06:28: fragment the Congo Basin and undermine its whole ecosystem function, destroy the Congo Basin,

01:06:37: potentially within 10 years, if you look at what's happened elsewhere in the world.

01:06:41: And so we're faced with a dilemma. One is that the Chinese are building a road. Congo needs roads

01:06:50: that's non-negotiable. It's an incredibly important, valuable project for Congo that the

01:06:57: Chinese are investing in. But if measures aren't taken to mitigate the impact of that road,

01:07:05: we could be in an extraordinary level of trouble with the destruction of the Congo Basin as a

01:07:12: critical global asset, but also the spreading of the violence westwards, which was a huge problem

01:07:22: for the Congolese state, hence their interest in what was happening in Varunga. And so what we did

01:07:28: as we developed this idea that this road is important, it's needed, the Congolese people need

01:07:35: development and roads are essential to that. But we've got four years before that road is built.

01:07:42: We have to get something in place that's going to enable that road to reach its economic potential,

01:07:49: but without destroying the forest or hurting the communities. And so the idea of a protected area

01:07:56: around that corridor started to take shape. And this commission that was sent to Varunga

01:08:04: spent a few days with us looking at all these factories and hydroelectric plants and all

01:08:10: this development that was happening around Varunga and really worked on the dream of

01:08:17: replicating that all the way across Congo to the west to Kinshasa in a way that would

01:08:24: have a whole number of impacts, protecting the Congo Basin as Congo's contribution to the climate

01:08:32: effort, but also reunifying the country and then meeting these three great objectives that we felt

01:08:40: could be achieved by developing all those sectors of the economy. So clean energy, green agro transformation

01:08:50: and renewable energy driven transport systems along the corridor in a way that protects the

01:08:57: forest because the legal framework is in place, but also creates 500,000 jobs, which is what we

01:09:06: felt the potential would be when it comes on that scale, protect 100,000 square kilometers of natural

01:09:13: forest and transfer a million tons of food from the incredibly rich highlands of eastern Congo

01:09:22: around Varunga to the city of Kinshasa, which is the biggest city in Africa. 17 million people

01:09:31: soon to be 20 million. I think it's projected to be one of the three biggest cities in the world

01:09:38: in the next 30 years. And so these are big, big, big issues that we're confronted with,

01:09:44: you know, a population that size that's completely isolated, it only gets its food from Brazil,

01:09:50: South Africa and Europe. It's going to have massive food insecurity problems in the next

01:09:56: few years. But there is the solution, which is, you know, the kivus, which used to be the bread

01:10:02: basket of Central Africa until the war came, could suddenly restore that position, restore

01:10:08: those industries and feed the city of Kinshasa. And so that was incredibly appealing to the government,

01:10:16: to the head of state. And so it went straight within three days to the cabinet who adopted it

01:10:24: as a government program and instructed that Varunga should work with parliamentarians and with

01:10:34: government experts to establish a proposal for a new law, which was passed within, barely within

01:10:44: six weeks, as a whole new way of doing conservation in Congo, and as the definition of a new,

01:10:56: what they call the community reserve, which is 540,000 square kilometers,

01:11:03: over 2,500,000 kilometers from Kinshasa to Varunga, making it, yeah, indeed, the biggest

01:11:11: forest reserve in the world, an area that's roughly the size of France and has 31 million

01:11:20: people within it. So quite a challenge. And the idea over the next few years is to really try,

01:11:28: in partnership with the communities above all, but with the private sector and other institutions,

01:11:36: to build out the Varunga model along that corridor, based on a whole dialogue with the

01:11:47: communities and based on their consent for this real surge in economic development,

01:11:53: but also hopefully a stabilization of the region and a pathway for peace.

01:12:00: Emmanuel, listening to you for now an hour and a bit, where does your personal commitment and

01:12:09: your resilience come from? Because we also have to tell the listeners that you have not only been

01:12:16: there for more than two decades, but you also have been shot. You stayed through war and you

01:12:21: stayed through danger. And yet, from what I hear is you are hopeful, you're doing things,

01:12:28: you're moving forward, you build alliances, you work for a really bold vision.

01:12:34: For what? Well, that's not a difficult question. I'm surrounded by the team

01:12:45: that I say even more committed and more driven than I am. So I draw my energy from that.

01:12:51: I have extraordinarily talented and committed people to work with. And so you have to meet

01:13:04: their standards. And that's very motivating. Sometimes it's quite difficult. It's a difficult

01:13:12: level to match the people I work with. But that's what keeps me going more than anything else.

01:13:20: Certainly, there have been difficult moments. There was an incident 10 years ago when we were

01:13:28: confronted with enormous pressures in part from the oil industry. We were carrying out

01:13:34: an investigation over five years. And it was the day that I submitted that investigation to

01:13:42: the state prosecutor that I came under attack while I was driving back to the park and was quite

01:13:49: badly injured when a group of people opened fire on the vehicle I was in. But I was very lucky.

01:14:01: I had some people from the village pick me up in the forest and put me on a motorbike and got me

01:14:08: to hospital. And so I survived. Many, many of my colleagues weren't so lucky. We've lost

01:14:17: 211 of our friends, of our colleagues in the effort to try and protect Runga since the war

01:14:26: started. And their families have had to deal with the tragedy and all the difficulties that

01:14:37: followed one of these horrific events of when our colleagues get killed. And that too is

01:14:45: an incredible motivation. You have to respect their sacrifice, which is far greater than mine.

01:14:56: And so I do find that very a source of enormous drive and commitment. It's what they have done

01:15:06: to keep this park going. And it's a park that is succeeding. It's a park that's refusing to die.

01:15:13: And so you get swept along with it. And I don't regret a single day of that teamwork.

01:15:26: Because we are coming to the end, actually, we came to the end an hour ago. But I would really

01:15:35: I mean, it's such an intense story. Just you alone, plus the park and the heart of the people. And

01:15:44: this endless fight for just fairness and having a life like everybody else.

01:15:53: What gives you hope today? Oh, there's so much. I mean, every day, you know, new things are happening,

01:16:02: new ideas are developing. Every day, there's a whole set of new livelihoods that are created.

01:16:12: I love that National Park. I love the wildlife within it. And the elephant numbers have increased

01:16:21: tenfold in the last 10 years. The mountain gorillas have tripled in numbers. There's so many reasons

01:16:29: to feel hopeful. And I could go on about it for hours. Generally, when, you know, when one's

01:16:37: committed and puts in the effort, things succeed. Of course, it's a challenging environment.

01:16:43: We're in the midst of a war and horrific things are happening. But that's all the more reason to

01:16:50: feel that the work matters. And it's important to drive a really positive agenda on what can be

01:16:59: achieved with the people of Congo who deserve so much more than they've suffered in the last

01:17:08: few years. So, yeah, I think we do feel hopeful about the future. It's something that has to

01:17:16: happen and we have to make it happen. And so it's an incredibly positive period in many ways.

01:17:26: But, you know, we have to be realistic about the challenges. But so far, it's gaining momentum.

01:17:35: So that's encouraging. I think you said a while ago, and I quote you,

01:17:43: it is not always the great ideas and leaders and thinkers who have the greatest impact,

01:17:50: but the most disempowered. And Verunga is a great example of that. And I think you are an

01:17:58: absolute fantastic human example of that, what is possible. And I feel very honored that you took

01:18:07: time to talk to me today. And I hope the listeners enjoy and whoever wants to help either financially

01:18:15: or in labour or in trade or in security should pick up the phone and contact you.

01:18:23: Thank you. That's incredibly kind. And I really enjoyed our discussion.

01:18:28: Thank you very much, Emmanuel. All the best.

01:18:30: Thank you. Thank you, Sebel. Bye-bye.

01:18:32: This has been another episode of the Großer Neustadt from Zabila Baden. For more information,

01:18:41: please visit ZabilaBaden.com or the official site of the World Economic Forum.