00:00:00: So nature is beautiful and nature is so sustainable.

00:00:05: And nature is so capable of re-growing and healing itself

00:00:11: if we let it alone, if we let an ecosystem alone.

00:00:16: Welcome to this special English edition of Der Gorsche Neustadt,

00:00:22: a German podcast series by Zabilla Barton,

00:00:27: which talks to pioneering leaders who, inspired by the World Economic Forum's

00:00:31: great reset initiative, are committed to making our world smarter, greener and fairer.

00:00:38: Today we welcome Dr. Ismaane Elouafi, Executive Managing Director of CGIR,

00:00:49: the world's largest agricultural research network, leading 9,000 scientists across 89 countries.

00:00:56: For over 50 years, the organization has shaped how the world grows food.

00:01:00: Its research powers 60% of the world's wheat and 50% of its rice,

00:01:06: securing not only our food systems, but also lifting millions out of poverty.

00:01:12: Dr. Elouafi has shaped agriculture policies as chief scientist of the FAO,

00:01:18: held key roles at the UN and top research institutes

00:01:23: and is a leading voice in climate resilient agriculture.

00:01:26: She has been recognized with prestigious awards, including the National Award Medal by King Mohammed of Morocco,

00:01:33: the Excellence in Science Award from the Global Sinkers Forum,

00:01:37: the Arab Woman of the Year Award and was named by the New York Times

00:01:42: as one of 10 women redefining leadership.

00:01:45: Why does this conversation matter?

00:01:48: One third of the world's land is degraded, food demand will rise by 60% by 2050

00:01:54: and 75% of what we eat comes from just five crops,

00:02:00: leaving our food systems dangerously fragile.

00:02:03: Dr. Elouafi, we are very happy to have you with us today. Good morning.

00:02:08: Good morning, Sibir. How are you?

00:02:11: I'm all right. Hearing those numbers and statistics,

00:02:16: are we facing the perfect storm?

00:02:18: Yes, definitely, yes, Sibir. We are at a crossroad.

00:02:22: We are at the eye of the storm, I would say,

00:02:27: because the numbers you mentioned are scary.

00:02:30: Sometimes we don't really feel them because we have been maybe telling those numbers too many times

00:02:38: without really making the connection between them and people.

00:02:43: But for me, as I have, I had the privilege of living in so many countries,

00:02:47: visiting many countries and many of them in the least income countries.

00:02:51: So when I say that there is 800 million people that suffer from hunger,

00:02:56: or 350 million that are affected by extreme hunger,

00:03:01: I have images in my mind, images that I have seen.

00:03:05: And what extreme hunger means is that these people could die from it.

00:03:11: And that's what it means, extreme hunger, by definition.

00:03:14: So it's really a very bad times where the increase of extreme hunger people,

00:03:21: the increasing number of degradation of land,

00:03:25: the increasing impact of climate change and the variability that we see,

00:03:30: are we from east to west, north to south?

00:03:33: We feel it every day. We feel that really the weather,

00:03:38: the climate is unpredictable and changing.

00:03:40: All of this makes it, and with the geopolitics, if we add on it,

00:03:44: what's happening globally, geopolitically,

00:03:47: we are definitely in the perfect storm and we are at the eye of the storm,

00:03:52: and we need new solutions. We can't keep repeating what we have done in the past.

00:03:57: We have new solutions that are more drastic, that are more bored,

00:04:02: and that brings everybody together.

00:04:05: One of the numbers that really shocked me in 2024 was that the climatologists said that

00:04:13: all the models we have do not work anymore,

00:04:17: because basically we have been trucking climate for the last 180 years or so.

00:04:23: And what we have seen in that 180 years, we used to use it to get a prediction

00:04:30: of what could happen in the future.

00:04:33: Last year, data showed that what we have seen in the past is not what we're going to see in the future.

00:04:38: So we can't use anymore the data we have to predict tomorrow

00:04:43: or to predict the weather of the future.

00:04:46: The other number that shocked me really was that with plus two degrees,

00:04:51: we're going to have 189 million people more that are going to face hangar.

00:04:56: With plus four degrees, we're going to have almost two billion more

00:05:02: that are going to be facing hangar.

00:05:03: So the urgency of acting right now can't be stated strongly.

00:05:08: It's really very urgent to reverse the impact we have on the planet

00:05:14: in terms of particularly changing the weather on the planet.

00:05:17: But also it's very, very urgent for us to address

00:05:21: malnutrition, hangar, poverty in a much more broad way,

00:05:27: because the number accumulates very, very quickly.

00:05:31: Unless we address it now that we have the number we have,

00:05:33: we're going to find ourselves in an impossible situation in a very short time.

00:05:38: So the window of opportunity for us to act now

00:05:43: and act on those very important priorities that doesn't touch one country only

00:05:49: or one community, it touch everybody.

00:05:52: So unless we tackle it now, we're going to find ourselves

00:05:57: in a really, very bad situation that will make it even much more costier to address it.

00:06:02: The other number that also I need to share with you

00:06:05: is a number that came from a publication in 2023 by Dr. Joaquin Van Brouw

00:06:13: and a few colleagues.

00:06:15: And basically the numbers say they were modeling how much it's going to cost

00:06:19: to really curb the malnutrition numbers.

00:06:25: And they were saying that they did the study in 2021

00:06:28: and the number came about $12 billion.

00:06:33: So basically what it says in only four years,

00:06:37: the cost of addressing hangar particularly,

00:06:41: and we're talking about malnutrition particularly,

00:06:44: is doubled by three times within four years.

00:06:48: So what it says, it says that the more we wait

00:06:53: to address the issues of malnutrition, the costier it is.

00:06:56: And that number, it's doubling every two years or so.

00:07:01: So we need to do it now and we cannot postpone it

00:07:04: and say that we have highest priorities than hangar and malnutrition globally.

00:07:09: I'm grateful that you give us this very big picture.

00:07:18: When you say we are in the eye of the storm and we have all the knowledge,

00:07:25: you are the scientists and you are in your leading organization.

00:07:30: What is it that you are doing to help solving some of the problems?

00:07:37: So from the agriculture sector, there's a lot that could be done.

00:07:41: I think the agriculture sector or food, land and water systems

00:07:47: have been undermined or underestimated in terms of what they can do.

00:07:54: And I think really that's the voice that we are bringing to the table.

00:07:58: We are saying that agriculture as a sector or food, land and water systems

00:08:04: are the solution. Why are they the solution?

00:08:07: We tend to look at them only from the negative side,

00:08:10: that they are using 70% of water,

00:08:14: that they are responsible for deforestation and so on and so forth,

00:08:18: that they are part 33% emission of greenhouse gas.

00:08:22: But we end up playing their role in tackling these issues.

00:08:26: One, agriculture employ about 3 billion people.

00:08:30: The food system at large employ 3 billion people.

00:08:34: So we are part and parcel of livelihood of those 3 billion people.

00:08:38: Of course, agriculture particularly is to produce food for everyone.

00:08:43: So that's the primary role.

00:08:45: But in the same time, when we think about it,

00:08:48: the only place where you could sequester carbon, it's soils.

00:08:53: Soils have a huge capacity of carbon sequestration.

00:08:57: It's plants and that's chlorophyllar.

00:09:00: So that's how we exchange oxygen and CO2.

00:09:04: That's the chlorophyllar capacity of plants, kingdom and in oceans.

00:09:11: So when we talk about food, land and water system then,

00:09:15: we realize that we are the only one that could clean up the earth.

00:09:19: But how could we do that?

00:09:21: The only way to do it, it's to bring science,

00:09:24: understand the capacity of carbon sequestration

00:09:28: and increase that capacity.

00:09:30: And there are practices in land and water and food system

00:09:35: that will allow us to do that.

00:09:38: But to do that, we need to cost it, we need to incentivize it

00:09:42: and we need to help the farmers to move to that sustainable food,

00:09:47: agri-food systems that we are talking about for the last 4-5 years.

00:09:52: So the solution is within the ag sector.

00:09:55: And that's really what it is undermined.

00:09:58: If I compare ag and energy,

00:10:01: you will find that the energy has been always very well organized as a sector.

00:10:06: And when we start talking about climate change

00:10:09: and the issues around climate finance,

00:10:12: they were the first one really to be ready with the solution,

00:10:16: which is renewable energy.

00:10:18: And because they are organized,

00:10:20: they have received most of the funding to allow that just transition

00:10:25: from fuel-based energy to renewable energy.

00:10:28: In the agriculture, we need to do the same.

00:10:31: And we need to do it very quickly,

00:10:35: because unless we don't do it very quickly,

00:10:37: it will be very difficult to produce what we are producing right now

00:10:41: with the bill that we are paying for it right now from natural resources,

00:10:46: be it water, be it land, and be it other natural resources.

00:10:51: So we need to really position agriculture as already very important

00:10:56: because that's, we can't live without it.

00:10:58: And we have a huge one-nutrition issue globally,

00:11:03: but also use agriculture as a source of solution

00:11:07: to increase carbon sequestration and clean up our air.

00:11:11: And science today is allowing us to do that.

00:11:14: That's the beauty of the science and the knowledge.

00:11:17: It's that it grows as you share it.

00:11:20: So in the last few years,

00:11:22: the breakthroughs that we came through, be it in the genetic field,

00:11:27: be it in nanotechnology, be it in computing,

00:11:31: be it in digital, be it in understanding the different microorganisms

00:11:36: through microbiomes of animals or soils or animals.

00:11:42: All of this knowledge has allowed us to understand better

00:11:46: the food that we are eating, how we are consuming them,

00:11:50: and what's best for each individual.

00:11:54: So this bulk of science should be deployed

00:11:59: in the least income countries as much as is deployed in the high income countries.

00:12:05: We should democratize science and democratize innovation

00:12:10: and make sure that that innovation is in the hand of those that need the most.

00:12:16: And those are 500 million small scale producers that are mostly,

00:12:21: they are in the high income country,

00:12:23: but they are mostly in the low income country and low middle income country.

00:12:27: And they are producing more than a third of our food.

00:12:30: We need to provide them with that know-how.

00:12:33: We need to provide them with those innovations so they can produce more with less resources.

00:12:38: Because by the end, we have to increase the unit productivity in terms of nutrition,

00:12:45: in terms of productivity per se, both calories and nutrition,

00:12:49: but also per unit of land and per unit of water.

00:12:52: Those two are very important parts.

00:12:56: You said now so many important things, which I would like to go in.

00:13:00: The one thing I hadn't heard before was democratized science.

00:13:04: Can you go a little deeper in that?

00:13:06: Sure, Sidiya.

00:13:08: So I have the feeling, and I think the numbers are backing it up,

00:13:13: not only feeling that when we have a new technology,

00:13:17: it always benefits the countries that can't afford to use that technology.

00:13:24: And most of the time, we have a huge issue of the cost of those innovations.

00:13:29: So then by the end, they are more affordable to the northern hemisphere than the southern hemisphere.

00:13:36: But also sometimes other than the cost, it's the infrastructure.

00:13:43: It's the human capacity, the resource, the human resources around it.

00:13:48: So by democratizing, what I mean is that we need to make sure that the knowledge is available to all.

00:13:55: Let me give you an example of a technology, gene editing technology.

00:14:00: It's a new technology that's owned a Nobel Prize for two scientists, two women's scientists,

00:14:07: in 2020, I think it was 2020.

00:14:12: And the gene editing technology, it's a technology that could hopefully solve the issue that we have with GMOs completely.

00:14:19: So it's a technology that allows you to go directly in the species you are working and make changes in the amino acid,

00:14:28: which change the gene, which change the character that you are looking for.

00:14:32: So it's not anymore taking a portion from a species to a species.

00:14:38: It's very much a fact doing your work directly in the species that you are working with,

00:14:43: which will stop the GMO debate once we understand it fully.

00:14:47: What happens when gene editing came?

00:14:51: When gene editing came to be known and many labs were working on it,

00:14:56: and it was a proven technology to really do a much more quicker breeding of species,

00:15:02: be it animal, be it fish, be it plant, be it any species.

00:15:07: What happened is the debate start. Is it a GMO technology or not?

00:15:11: So some countries were very fast in declaring it non-GMOs because they look at the technology and they have their own internal reviews.

00:15:20: One of them was Japan that declared it non-GMOs.

00:15:24: The other one was the US and few other.

00:15:26: But at the same time, what happened?

00:15:29: The European Commission said it's a GMO.

00:15:33: The court went and said it is a GMO.

00:15:36: What happens in that time?

00:15:37: So these high income countries, be it Japan, be it US, be it Europe,

00:15:43: as today European Commission, are all high income countries.

00:15:46: So what they did, the fact that European Commission said it's a GMO,

00:15:52: it stopped completely the use of gene editing in most of the African countries.

00:15:56: What's happening in Europe?

00:15:59: Most universities are using it.

00:16:01: Gene editing technology is used in the laboratories for research purposes.

00:16:05: So while the debate is happening, the laboratories is using it and they are finding,

00:16:10: they are developing it further.

00:16:12: They are finding the right genes that they need to work on and so on and so forth.

00:16:16: The countries in the South, particularly in Africa,

00:16:19: because they don't have their own capacity and because their market is mostly Europe,

00:16:24: they completely stop using gene editing.

00:16:27: It took two, three years of debate.

00:16:30: As a chief scientist myself, I championed the paper on it because I talked to the US.

00:16:34: It's a breakthrough technology that everybody should have access to.

00:16:38: We brought in a number of scientists to analyze it.

00:16:41: People that are for people that are against and the paper finally said that the gene editing per se,

00:16:48: it's a non GMO.

00:16:50: When you go into the technology, how you use it, there is three technologies or three DSN1 and 2 and 3.

00:16:57: The 1 and 2, it's 100%.

00:17:00: There is zero risk of any extra genus DNA in.

00:17:03: The number three could have a minimal risk.

00:17:06: So if anything could be, should be regulated, it's the methodology, the DSN3.

00:17:12: So, but by the time UK in the meanwhile did their analysis and declared it as well, non GMOs.

00:17:18: What happens in that time?

00:17:20: Who is the loser?

00:17:22: The loser is the least income countries because they don't have the capacity.

00:17:25: They blocked everything.

00:17:28: The winners are the high income countries.

00:17:30: Either the declared GMOs or not, they have been using it, including in Europe.

00:17:34: Including in Europe that declared GMO very quickly.

00:17:38: And now they are in reviewing it again.

00:17:41: They haven't stopped research.

00:17:43: They haven't stopped their scientists using it.

00:17:45: And that's what I mean by democratization.

00:17:47: Sometimes it's regulation.

00:17:49: Sometimes it's access to knowledge.

00:17:52: Sometimes it's infrastructure and human resources.

00:17:57: And there are a number of components that we need to really tackle to make sure that we create environment and we provide opportunities for the south to come with innovations as well.

00:18:08: Using the latest technology in any field, be it geometry or be it geology or be it food or any other, any disciplines in size.

00:18:19: I hope that example explains it to you, CBL.

00:18:22: Yeah.

00:18:25: What do you think is in the short term and in the longer term a way out?

00:18:29: In the long term, let me start with the long term, I think.

00:18:33: In the long term, I think we have to revisit our understanding of ownership, partnership.

00:18:41: How do we work together?

00:18:43: What's the connection between us all as human on this planet?

00:18:48: I think really geopolitically we have to do a lot of rearrangement and a lot of leveling of levels.

00:18:55: Right now we have strata everywhere and we are all human on this planet and we share it.

00:19:01: So I think geopolitically we need to review completely the values around which we are covering as human being and our responsibility as human being for the planet.

00:19:14: Because we are the most intelligent species, we are the only one that can speak and hence with that we have a responsibility to really protect the planet and protect the people, the species on this planet as well.

00:19:28: In the short term, I think we need to act very, very quickly.

00:19:32: Very quickly to really tackle issues that are extremely important.

00:19:39: In the long term, it's definitely a matter of nutrition and we need to really provide the means and the tools to the countries in the south to produce their own food.

00:19:49: We have a huge yield gap in most of the least income countries whereby they are producing 10% of the potential of where they are producing.

00:20:01: We can definitely multiply easily their productivity by 5, 6, 7 times with very little tools and little solutions.

00:20:09: That requires investment. We need to tackle inequalities. By the end, inequalities, it's really at the heart of everything.

00:20:17: So be it inequalities at the global level, regional level, national level, community level, we need to tackle it and we need to recognize that.

00:20:26: And I think we need to invest more in science, technology and innovation.

00:20:31: We need the solutions to become innovation in the hand of the farmers and we can do it if we keep science being a little bit elitist or little bit only for some of us.

00:20:42: We need really to open up and I'm very proud of being part and parcel of the CDR or even before that FAO and ICBA and other organizations because we are for a public good.

00:20:56: We are doing science that is fully open for everybody and we are pushing more and more for open accessible access to knowledge, to innovation and to new ideas that can allow us to produce more with less because I do believe we can do it with science and with what we know right now.

00:21:14: Let's learn what we're going to be discovering in the next few years.

00:21:19: From what you were saying, it sounded almost like the key motivations behind CGI creation when 50 years ago it had been founded to prevent global hunger, among other things.

00:21:39: So your organization has today 9000 scientists, 50 years later. How successful have you been?

00:21:50: I think we have been very successful.

00:21:54: As you said, TVL, TVR started before just the famine of the 70s, the 60s and 70s. So it was at a time where we needed to produce more calories and it all started with actually one discovery which is what we call the nanism gene, a gene that will make your plant instead of being one meter and a half, it is about 70 centimeters.

00:22:21: And that gene was discovered by a Japanese scientist in the 1930s and he discovered he developed varieties of wheat that were registered in Japan and used in Japan.

00:22:34: So what he took, he took that person like for log who is a Nobel Prize winner.

00:22:41: He took that gene and he put it in many varieties and he saw the importance of having a nanism in wheat, in maize, in many crops and that's what started the Green Revolution.

00:22:52: The Green Revolution was producing more seeds than the vegetative part of the plant through the nanism gene to make the plant much shorter.

00:23:02: And that's really averted what we say now, we averted more than one billion people from malnutrition.

00:23:10: Our work also shows that we are averting every year between anywhere between three to six million deaths of young people, of children, because of providing them with the right composition in vitamin A, zinc and iron, which is very important to keep really kids alive in their first thousand days.

00:23:34: And a number of impact areas that we have done, we were behind almost 60% of all wheat varieties in the world, behind almost 50% of all rice varieties in the world.

00:23:45: Rice alone is providing about $11 billion per year, $11 billion per year in terms of return and so on and so forth.

00:23:54: So there is a number of great impact.

00:23:57: But I think today what CGR needs to do, it's quite different.

00:24:03: CGR now 50 years later has to do much more impact around those five impact areas that we are really very proud of.

00:24:13: One of them is really on climate adaptation and mitigation.

00:24:17: How could we transform our food, land and water system in this crisis mode?

00:24:23: How could we make sure that we have proper mitigation and adaptation with co-benefit of mitigation in the ag sectors?

00:24:32: And that's really sustainability in our food, land and water system management.

00:24:37: The second one, it's differently poverty reduction and livelihood and jobs, particularly for those 500 million small scale producers in the Grobelsau.

00:24:47: The third impact area, it's focusing more on what we have done very good on nutrition, but do it much more.

00:24:54: There's a lot of question now on what's a healthy diet and what is needed for different communities.

00:25:01: So more work on healthy diet and nutrition.

00:25:03: The fourth one, it's environment health and biodiversity.

00:25:06: And that's mostly in land and water system management whereby we need to really, we can't keep destroying the biodiversity and synergies between species.

00:25:17: And we see the best example in the soils, but also in any habitat.

00:25:22: It's a wonderful thing to maintain and we need to be intentional about maintaining its wild wild producing food.

00:25:30: And the fifth impact area, it's gender equality, youth and social inclusion whereby our work on the policy side, our work on understanding communities and focusing on gender, on equality between women and men in the ag sector, particularly at the production level, but across the system.

00:25:51: But also on how could we attract youth back to agriculture as we are seeing a huge aging problem in the sector.

00:26:00: If I hear all that, what you're doing and coming back to what you said at the beginning, that the old models won't do it anymore.

00:26:13: And we got all this new data.

00:26:17: So it seems that we have, you have, you scientists have all the necessary knowledge and data and probably quite the substantial amount of finance.

00:26:33: And yet, is it the knowledge?

00:26:36: Is it the lack of doing?

00:26:38: What is it that we don't know?

00:26:40: What is it that we don't do as a global society?

00:26:46: I think it's all of the above, Sibyl.

00:26:48: I think we need to be, we need to recognize the problems we have.

00:26:53: We need to recognize the inequalities, for example, and tackle them.

00:26:59: Say, how could we really stop this inequality and gap between the poor and rich growing between the North and the South?

00:27:08: And to solve those issues, I think we have to recognize our interconnectedness.

00:27:13: And I think really many of the crisis in the past have shown it very well, be it on floods in Pakistan to floods in Spain.

00:27:24: It shows how climate change is affecting all of us or drought in Canada.

00:27:32: We had drought before in the Predis versus drought in Chad and so on and so forth.

00:27:38: So that climate impact has brought us together.

00:27:42: Pandemic like COVID again showed us how interconnected we are.

00:27:46: And we tend to disconnect those things.

00:27:49: If we have to, we continue a global warming on planet Earth.

00:27:54: Virus is going to move in a completely different way.

00:27:57: Insect is going to move in a completely different ways.

00:28:01: They don't need a passport, they don't need visa, they're going to just move very quickly.

00:28:04: So we need to accept that reality of interconnectedness and that we are all under the same seat.

00:28:11: The other thing we have to recognize is that development, international development, it's in the benefit for everybody.

00:28:19: It's not benefiting only least income countries and those communities that are unmanorized.

00:28:25: So it's not benefiting the most of the people that are unmanorized.

00:28:29: It's not benefiting the most of the people that are unmanorized.

00:28:33: It's not benefiting the most of the people that are unmanorized.

00:28:37: It's benefiting the most of the people that are unmanorized.

00:28:41: It's benefiting the most of the people that are unmanorized.

00:28:44: It's benefiting the most of the people that are unmanorized.

00:28:47: It's benefiting the most of the people that are unmanorized.

00:28:51: It's really also recognizing that he's different from place to place.

00:28:56: Many of the studies that come have mostly a northern lens to it.

00:29:02: When we talk about livestock, for example, and we have the International Lifestyle Research Institute in Kenya and Addis Ababa and in Ethiopia.

00:29:13: So if you look at it, the average American consumes about 128 kilos of meat per year.

00:29:20: The average Nigerian eats only 7 kilos.

00:29:23: The average Indian will eat less than 1 kilo per year.

00:29:27: So when we talk about reducing livestock, we are always pushing it to all.

00:29:32: We're not saying that, hey, Americans, you cannot eat 128 kilos.

00:29:37: Maybe you need to eat less.

00:29:39: But maybe in India or in Nigeria, we need more because we have 165 million trindles and there are five that suffer from devastating diseases.

00:29:49: From devastating effects of stunting, which is the low height of age and 45 million that are wasted, which is that they are too thin for their height.

00:29:59: And both of these requires animal protein to help them.

00:30:04: And unless we give them those protein that they need, they will never attain their full potential height or their cognitive potential.

00:30:13: So in this, for those children, be it in India, be it in Niger, be it in Burkina or other places.

00:30:19: that faces.

00:30:20: they do require to have access to animal source food.

00:30:24: But we should look at the Northern countries

00:30:27: and say the analysis that comes from your lenses

00:30:30: applies to those communities that eat 128 kilo per year,

00:30:34: not to those that have hardly a kilo per year.

00:30:38: And that's really this differentiation

00:30:41: of what is needed in different places.

00:30:45: It's very important.

00:30:46: It applies also to ecosystem.

00:30:50: I like to use the example is that you

00:30:53: can't ask the kidney to make the function of the heart

00:30:57: or the heart to take the function of the liver.

00:31:01: Every organ has a role.

00:31:04: Every ecosystem has a role.

00:31:06: What you can produce in an ecosystem in Colombia

00:31:09: is completely different than what you

00:31:11: can produce in an ecosystem in southern Morocco, for example,

00:31:16: or in Tanzania or other places.

00:31:18: So every ecosystem, it's better used for certain species

00:31:24: with the monoculture and with reducing

00:31:29: the diversification of our plate, basically.

00:31:33: We have focused only on few species.

00:31:35: But now, given what we know, given

00:31:39: the science that allows us to do much more things

00:31:41: at a lower cost, we should diversify our agri-food system.

00:31:46: We should diversify our diet.

00:31:48: And we need to bring those neglected and the utilized

00:31:52: species that our ancestors have survived on over so many

00:31:56: centuries.

00:31:57: We need to bring them back because not only they

00:32:00: are more adaptable to climate change,

00:32:03: but also they are more nutritious.

00:32:05: And most of the time, they're more

00:32:07: synergetic with the ecosystem where they grow,

00:32:10: be it with the microorganisms in the soil

00:32:13: or with the species, the other species around them

00:32:17: in those ecosystems.

00:32:20: We also need to definitely renew our standing of nature.

00:32:24: And I remember that you were sitting at Davos,

00:32:29: the World Economic Forum's annual meeting this year.

00:32:34: And you emphasized the importance of soil and saying--

00:32:39: and I quote you because I really fell in love with that--

00:32:42: you said, "Nature is beautiful, but needs to be understood."

00:32:48: What do we not understand about soil?

00:32:50: I think we understand about all nature.

00:32:53: We understand less than 1% of nature.

00:32:57: We're very proud of ourselves.

00:32:59: And we think we understand all.

00:33:01: But most of these species-- I'll give you an example.

00:33:04: Not before getting to the slide.

00:33:07: We did a project called PTFI, which

00:33:11: is periodic table of food in Ishtar.

00:33:14: And basically what it is, it's creating a periodic table

00:33:19: like what we have periodic table for chemistry that

00:33:22: explain every food what it is.

00:33:24: And what they did, they took 1,000--

00:33:26: we took 1,000 food, an apple, or a tagine, or a couscous,

00:33:32: or a jinsen, or a juice, different food.

00:33:36: And we look at the biomolecule that comes out of fed to an MS,

00:33:42: which is a mass spectral tool.

00:33:47: And what did we find?

00:33:48: We find that out of almost 22,000 biomolecules,

00:33:53: we could understand or we could identify only about 300.

00:33:58: So almost 15% knowing biomolecules

00:34:03: and the remaining are unknowing.

00:34:05: And what it says, it goes back to what I said about nature.

00:34:09: We understand better than little of nature.

00:34:12: We have been very proud as human to say,

00:34:15: we know this pathway and that pathway.

00:34:18: But most of the time, we know one pathway of one protein,

00:34:22: but we don't know the interactions with the others.

00:34:25: So nature, it's beautiful.

00:34:28: And nature, it's so sustainable.

00:34:31: And nature, it's so capable of re-growing and healing itself

00:34:37: if we let it alone.

00:34:39: If we let an ecosystem alone and we stop

00:34:42: disturbing the ecosystem, they will heal themselves.

00:34:45: And they will grow again and create a balance.

00:34:49: So nature is definitely so beautiful.

00:34:52: And we see it in the soil.

00:34:53: We always, we talk soil, it's a dead matter.

00:34:57: It's not a dead matter.

00:34:59: It's a very alive matter.

00:35:01: And I always say it, I lived in the UAE for many years.

00:35:05: And they never before, beauty for me was green.

00:35:09: But then when I get to see the desert

00:35:12: and see the desert in different times,

00:35:14: I could see desert with different eyes.

00:35:17: The color is different from different times.

00:35:19: And when there is a bit, you drops off a rain,

00:35:23: the desert blooms.

00:35:25: Because microorganisms live in that sand as well,

00:35:29: because seeds survive for millions of years in that,

00:35:33: in that sand.

00:35:34: So for me, we need to be more humble,

00:35:38: recognize that we know very little of nature,

00:35:42: do more investment to understand nature,

00:35:45: and try to mimic nature in our production systems.

00:35:48: Because nature produce what everybody needs,

00:35:52: but still it's a healthy and balanced ecosystem.

00:35:55: And I think really we need to learn more from it.

00:35:57: And the only way to do it is to invest more in science.

00:36:00: It's to invest more in discovering what's in it.

00:36:04: What are the different pathways?

00:36:06: What are, how could we be as smart as nature

00:36:11: and produce our food while still preserving biodiversity,

00:36:15: while still producing our soil and keeping them healthy,

00:36:19: while using less water than we are using right now.

00:36:23: So it's a wonderful journey that I'm sure all scientists

00:36:30: are so delighted to be part of it.

00:36:33: Today we have tools that allows us to understand much more,

00:36:37: much more.

00:36:38: But even with those tools, we recognize more and more

00:36:42: that we know very little.

00:36:43: But if we continue investing, if we make it a global movement

00:36:48: to understand better nature, if we invest all,

00:36:51: and we share knowledge, we share information,

00:36:53: I'm sure in 20, 30, 50 years we will understand better.

00:36:57: And hopefully we will find a better sustainable food land

00:37:02: and water systems that will allow people to grow and go

00:37:07: to their full potential, particularly when we think

00:37:09: about kids in those camps or kids that are displaced,

00:37:14: either internally or externally, or farmers that are trying

00:37:20: to get their livelihood, but also their nutrition

00:37:22: from a small piece of land with very little technology,

00:37:26: we can do that.

00:37:27: We really all invest in it, and we all share it with each other.

00:37:32: And we put first public good before any other aspects

00:37:37: in our economy or in our thinking and in our actions.

00:37:43: So if we put public good first and understanding first

00:37:49: and then sharing and allowing those in the least income

00:37:53: countries, in the low middle income countries,

00:37:56: to produce better and produce more smartly

00:37:59: with the right tools, I think we'll be in a different world.

00:38:02: It's doable.

00:38:03: I don't see it's so difficult to be tackled.

00:38:06: It's about willingness and particularly

00:38:08: political willingness that we are not seeing enough of.

00:38:13: Willingness, quite right.

00:38:16: That's I think this is pretty much the key, willingness.

00:38:20: How do we change the--

00:38:22: but this is more a broader question.

00:38:23: I mean, maybe you have some thoughts about it.

00:38:26: How do we change the narrative about raising the understanding

00:38:32: and changing the will of doing less monoculture, more sharing,

00:38:40: more collaboration, more public-private partnerships,

00:38:44: and so on?

00:38:45: It will take a lot of awareness.

00:38:47: It will take awareness in terms of the importance of that move

00:38:52: towards a more sustainable agri-food system.

00:38:56: It will take holding hands of small older farmers

00:39:00: and helping them.

00:39:02: And it will take, most importantly, helping them financially.

00:39:07: Because right now, when I go back to the analogy with energy,

00:39:11: the just transition and energy made

00:39:14: that most countries supported very, very strongly.

00:39:18: Very, very strongly in that past transition.

00:39:21: So we have top cities for renewable energy.

00:39:24: We have top cities for private sector

00:39:26: to develop the different tools from electric cars

00:39:29: to others.

00:39:30: And that is not happening in the agriculture.

00:39:33: But right now, we are asking the farmers

00:39:36: to move to sustainability with no hand.

00:39:40: And unless we find a way to support small-scale farmers,

00:39:45: but also the medium and the large one,

00:39:47: to move to a sustainable food system

00:39:50: and have that transition over six, seven years.

00:39:54: Because in the sustainable systems,

00:39:57: you will get through a decrease in yield, more investment,

00:40:02: and decrease of yield for at least five years,

00:40:05: minimum five years before your yield come up.

00:40:08: Because nature needs time.

00:40:10: Because ecosystem and scenery of different species

00:40:14: needs time.

00:40:15: That you can do it in a microwave.

00:40:17: You can't take and pass it by using anything.

00:40:21: So hence, we need a just transition plan

00:40:25: to allow the communities, particularly the small-scale

00:40:29: producers and the low-income small-scale producers,

00:40:34: to really move towards sustainability.

00:40:36: And for that, you need the right policies, the right markets.

00:40:40: You need the investment.

00:40:43: And it is a pity to know that although agriculture has

00:40:47: a huge potential, we are getting less than 3%

00:40:50: of the finance of the climate finance.

00:40:55: The small-scale producers are getting 0.5%

00:40:58: of that climate finance globally.

00:41:01: So there is a lot of things.

00:41:03: I don't think it's a lack of funding,

00:41:05: but it's repurchasing the funding

00:41:08: to really provide that just transition to agri-food systems

00:41:12: as well, the way we did it in energy, which

00:41:14: was very successful.

00:41:16: That's a very interesting number, this 3% you were saying,

00:41:20: because my previous guest was Ibrahim Soar, the UNCCD Secretary

00:41:28: General, who you know and shared a panel.

00:41:32: Anyway, he was mentioning that nature provides for 50%

00:41:38: of the global GDP.

00:41:40: And yet, you tell me that the number for agriculture

00:41:45: investment is 3%.

00:41:48: Yes, from the climate finance, we are

00:41:51: agriculture is getting maximum 3%.

00:41:55: It's even less than 3% of the climate finance.

00:41:58: And that's really, it's not correct.

00:42:00: Because if we looked at the greenhouse gas,

00:42:03: we are emitting 33%.

00:42:06: So if we want to really tackle the emitters,

00:42:09: we need to provide them also with the tool

00:42:12: to move to that sustainable practices

00:42:15: and the sustainable practices and climate

00:42:18: smart agricultural systems.

00:42:20: So by providing 3%, it wouldn't allow us to curb that 33%.

00:42:26: So it's not proportional at all.

00:42:31: And I'm happy that really the Secretary General of UNCCD

00:42:37: mentioned the 50% of GDP.

00:42:40: So most of what we are reading in our economy,

00:42:43: it's coming from the biology in nature

00:42:47: or the resources in nature.

00:42:49: And that's where I like very much the definition of bioeconomy

00:42:53: and the push for a bioeconomy in Germany

00:42:56: and many other countries.

00:42:58: Because that will means we have to understand nature better

00:43:02: and we have to produce in a more bio way using

00:43:06: biological knowledge, using nature pathways and nature ways

00:43:12: of doing things.

00:43:14: That's how I like to define it myself.

00:43:17: And seeing a push for it, it's very important.

00:43:20: Because if you want to do it, the only way to do it

00:43:22: is that you move to a life cycle analysis,

00:43:25: whereby you don't proclaim this is better

00:43:28: unless you have a proper content for the whole life cycle.

00:43:32: And you subsidize, you support financially and non-financially

00:43:38: only those systems that you know that their life cycle makes

00:43:42: it lower carbon emission and also better nutrition,

00:43:49: for example, or other criteria that we

00:43:51: need to add to the equation.

00:43:53: You create all these crops and you support the farmers.

00:44:00: You know exactly what's going on, what's needed.

00:44:04: And at the same time, as we said at the beginning,

00:44:08: 75% of the world's food comes just from five crops,

00:44:14: which is basically, as far as I remember, rice, maize,

00:44:20: potatoes, and we're missing one.

00:44:25: What are the major obstacles here?

00:44:27: And you know, to build those five crops,

00:44:34: provide now about, I think, 60% of our calorie intake.

00:44:39: And if you look at animal species,

00:44:42: you're going to find, again, three species or less,

00:44:45: providing 70% of our protein intake and so on,

00:44:50: in fish the same way.

00:44:52: So we have been really minimalistic in the way

00:44:54: we have been looking at nature.

00:44:56: And that's one of the problems is

00:44:58: that we haven't really deployed all the richness of nature

00:45:05: to enrich our diet and to enrich our intake of nutrient

00:45:11: that we need.

00:45:12: And that will require really a completely different shift.

00:45:16: However, because of the importance

00:45:19: of those five commodities, for calorie intake and the malnutrition

00:45:25: issue we have, one of the programs

00:45:27: that we started at CCI almost 25 years ago,

00:45:31: it's called biofortification.

00:45:33: So biofortification is increasing some micronutrient

00:45:38: in those crops.

00:45:39: And the reason behind is that some people,

00:45:42: the only thing they eat, some families, some human,

00:45:45: and people maybe the only thing they eat all day,

00:45:48: it's a ball of rice.

00:45:50: Or everything they eat, it's a piece of bread.

00:45:52: That's their daily intake.

00:45:55: So one of the strategies was either you do fortification.

00:46:00: And we have a number of countries

00:46:02: that have fortified flour, for example,

00:46:06: to make sure that it has certain micronutrient.

00:46:09: But also biofortification is that you use genetics

00:46:13: to get your beans, for example, with high iron,

00:46:17: or to get your rice with more vitamin A,

00:46:20: or to get your maize, for example, with more vitamin A again.

00:46:25: So we were looking mostly at vitamin A, iron and zinc.

00:46:30: And we have some species with high zinc, including beans,

00:46:33: but also barley and others.

00:46:35: So the idea was that because people use those staple crops,

00:46:39: we need to biofortify those staple crops.

00:46:43: And now, for example, the African Union

00:46:45: had the declaration of a target of biofortification

00:46:49: of all small cereals to make sure

00:46:52: that they are helping in terms of cutting on malnutrition,

00:46:57: particularly for small kids.

00:46:59: The other things that we did at CGR,

00:47:01: we streamlined biofortification.

00:47:03: So in all our breeding programs,

00:47:05: be it on beans, on cassava, on wheat, and so on and so forth,

00:47:10: we have those targeted three elements

00:47:14: to be at the highest possible.

00:47:17: For example, right now, we are very proud

00:47:21: to have a very high-ironed potato species,

00:47:25: white potato species,

00:47:27: that has been developed in Peru, in our center there.

00:47:31: And that potato with high iron,

00:47:35: if it's consumed by the women in the Andes,

00:47:38: we'll cut dramatically on anemia issues

00:47:41: with women in the Andes.

00:47:43: So there is, so there are,

00:47:44: it's very important the diversification.

00:47:47: And there have been always a pro-diversification person.

00:47:50: So we need now to go and move from only 125 plant species

00:47:55: on the market to 3,000, 5,000, 60,000.

00:48:01: In the planet Earth, we have half million species.

00:48:04: So we need to increase diversification.

00:48:07: But in the same time,

00:48:09: till we have a full diversified agri-food system,

00:48:12: we need to continue the route

00:48:14: of making the staple food more nutritious,

00:48:18: particularly with those micronutrients

00:48:21: that are very, very important for our kids.

00:48:24: And that will make that a small baby grows to his or her

00:48:29: food potential or do not grow to their food potential.

00:48:33: So both agendas are very important.

00:48:36: So we bio-fortified those staple crops

00:48:38: so that we cut on hanger,

00:48:40: but we invest grammatically in the diversification

00:48:43: of agri-food systems across plant, animal,

00:48:47: fisheries, and so on and so forth.

00:48:49: What are the most important issues

00:48:54: your organization focuses at the moment?

00:48:57: So we have a new portfolio that we launched this year.

00:49:01: And we got all approval and we developed over a year in 2024.

00:49:05: And in that portfolio, what you are saying, it's destiny.

00:49:09: We have a huge program on healthy diet and nutrition,

00:49:14: whereby really we are looking at both

00:49:17: the scientific part of it,

00:49:20: whereby through diversification and bio-fortification

00:49:23: and other practices, we can have more nutritious food.

00:49:26: But also we are looking at the policy side.

00:49:29: How do we incentivize a more healthy diet?

00:49:32: How do we provide access to market?

00:49:35: How do we put the right policies and regulation

00:49:37: to make the value change shorter and more nutritious?

00:49:42: And so on and so forth.

00:49:44: We have also programs around climate adaptation,

00:49:47: both adaptation and mitigation.

00:49:48: How do we put in place an adaptation,

00:49:51: a strong adaptation practices with co-benefits on mitigation?

00:49:56: We have strong programs as well,

00:49:59: because we are talking about really 9,000 employees

00:50:02: across 89 countries.

00:50:05: We are also tackling issues around animal source food.

00:50:08: How do we use better our natural habitats

00:50:12: and our animal kingdom as well,

00:50:15: both fisheries and livestock and poultry and other species,

00:50:20: more ruminants and what have you?

00:50:22: We have a huge program as well on the policy side,

00:50:25: because by the end,

00:50:26: in technological innovation alone, we'd never make it.

00:50:30: We need to combine it with policy innovation,

00:50:33: with institutional innovation, with societal innovation,

00:50:36: with the right environment that takes in concentration,

00:50:39: all of this, from finance to investment to policy,

00:50:43: regulation, communities, involvement,

00:50:47: and policies and regulation.

00:50:48: By the end, they are so important

00:50:51: and we need to align them to the agenda.

00:50:54: Another program that I'm very proud of

00:50:57: is that we are also tackling

00:51:00: in how do we work also in conflict and post-conflict zones?

00:51:04: How could we help those people

00:51:06: that are stuck in war in the conflict,

00:51:09: knowing that IMO says that

00:51:12: IMO says now that those camps

00:51:16: or those temporary living areas

00:51:19: for most of those displaced communities,

00:51:23: be it in a country or between countries,

00:51:25: it's about two years.

00:51:26: That's the average.

00:51:28: The average of anybody being in a camp,

00:51:30: in a refugee camp, it's about two years.

00:51:33: So how could we work with them?

00:51:34: And we had very good examples from our work in Syria

00:51:39: during the war in Sudan over last year,

00:51:43: in Yemen and DRC and many other places.

00:51:46: So I'm very happy that within the new portfolio,

00:51:49: we are looking at conflict and post-conflict

00:51:52: and what CDR can do.

00:51:54: And some of it, it's really access to seeds,

00:51:57: access to fertilizer, access to input

00:52:02: so they can produce their own food

00:52:04: instead of waiting for humanitarian aid.

00:52:07: And the other program that we are really excited about

00:52:10: is called Scaling for Impact.

00:52:13: It's how do we take those innovations from the last,

00:52:17: from our experimental trials to the farmers?

00:52:21: We are not seeing enough adoption

00:52:24: and not enough as much as we want.

00:52:26: And that's really tempering the impact.

00:52:28: So we are doing a new program

00:52:31: and that's built on our experience

00:52:33: over the last three years of a development project

00:52:38: funded by the World Bank called ICRA,

00:52:41: another one funded by the US and other partners

00:52:45: that shows that really if we work more with the last mine,

00:52:48: our scientists, our CDR,

00:52:51: we secure that those last mine scaling programs

00:52:54: are using the best technology

00:52:56: because by the technology, it's not one or two things,

00:53:00: it's a bundle.

00:53:01: So what we are providing, it's a bundle of technologies

00:53:04: that works better in context A or context B

00:53:08: or in a region A or region.

00:53:11: So we are very happy that we're gonna do more on scaling,

00:53:15: working with our local partners

00:53:18: and with the partners on the ground

00:53:20: to make sure that we get to millions farmers,

00:53:23: not only a few thousands.

00:53:25: And many more on the portfolio.

00:53:27: We can also provide you more information on the portfolio.

00:53:31: I want to just to give you a few examples.

00:53:33: - If you had a free wish

00:53:36: after everything you were describing what you were doing,

00:53:39: what is it your most need?

00:53:42: What would make your life easier?

00:53:47: - More finance, I would say.

00:53:49: More resources to be able really to do the work

00:53:53: that we would like to do and that we are,

00:53:56: that's our mission and vision is guiding us to do

00:54:01: and more also partner.

00:54:04: So that's I think what we need.

00:54:05: We need more partnership,

00:54:07: be it from the science generator,

00:54:10: be it from the universities, the academia,

00:54:15: the private sector, but also more finance

00:54:17: to be really able to put those wonderful programs in place.

00:54:22: And that finance doesn't need to come only to CGR,

00:54:27: it has to come really to all the partners.

00:54:29: Partners at academia, wherever they are,

00:54:33: national systems, particularly in the global south,

00:54:36: NGOs in the south.

00:54:38: So we need much more funding to be able really

00:54:42: to get to cutting on hanger and monetization globally

00:54:46: and reducing poverty to the extent possible.

00:54:51: - Can I invite you because we are coming to the end,

00:54:57: can I invite you just,

00:54:58: we talked about as many things as one can talk about

00:55:03: in an hour, is there one issue left which you think

00:55:08: you want to address that because it's important to you?

00:55:11: - I think maybe we didn't cover enough

00:55:14: the gender components and particularly supporting

00:55:16: women farmers.

00:55:18: And I think we have really some wonderful,

00:55:21: let's see, understanding better of how do could we help women

00:55:27: in the rural areas, particularly in least income countries,

00:55:31: and how could we empower them?

00:55:33: And that's again, it's another call for more investment

00:55:36: in women, particularly in rural women,

00:55:38: because data shows that once you invest in the woman,

00:55:42: you have much more higher success rate

00:55:45: of cutting monetization, for example, in children's.

00:55:49: So I think the gender component,

00:55:51: we haven't maybe covered it enough,

00:55:53: but again, it's one of our accelerators

00:55:55: and we're delighted really that we are working closely

00:56:00: with many localities and many communities

00:56:03: to make sure that we are empowering women

00:56:05: because we need that improvement to happen.

00:56:09: And if you do it through gender lands,

00:56:12: our chances of success, it's multiplied by 100.

00:56:16: So that's components, maybe we didn't cover it enough.

00:56:19: I want to make sure it's Sibyl death.

00:56:22: We are clear on it and that we are very much supportive

00:56:26: of women empowerment, particularly in rural areas,

00:56:30: as they are the most of the farming it's done by them as well.

00:56:34: So how do you empower them?

00:56:37: Just let's explain it a little.

00:56:41: How do we empower them? How do you do it?

00:56:43: So let me give you an example of explaining to them.

00:56:48: For example, there is a program that we had in India

00:56:51: that explains to the women,

00:56:54: how do they really manage their money

00:56:57: from their own crop assistance?

00:57:00: So it's about really working with them to have a better plan.

00:57:05: Where I'm planting my wheat,

00:57:07: where I'm planting my tomatoes,

00:57:10: where I'm putting my chickens,

00:57:12: and then how do I diversify at the household level

00:57:17: to sell them in different times

00:57:20: and how I do manage my finance?

00:57:23: Because most of the time the women will do the work

00:57:26: and the men will sell and the money will disappear.

00:57:30: So just providing them with capabilities

00:57:34: to understand their finance

00:57:37: and to manage their finance better can go a long way.

00:57:41: In another example, for example,

00:57:43: another example is in the chicken area,

00:57:46: how do they maintain a healthy chickens?

00:57:50: So that's true technology and certain practices

00:57:54: of disinfection and so on and so forth.

00:57:57: So what we are seeing be it in disinfection of chicken

00:58:02: or maintaining healthy chicken or using your eggs

00:58:06: or understanding your finance

00:58:10: or diversifying your pot to get different things,

00:58:14: to get your beans and get your desks

00:58:15: and your tomatoes and this and that,

00:58:17: all of this go a long way

00:58:19: because what it does first,

00:58:22: it's improve the nutrition in the household.

00:58:25: And then it affects those small kids,

00:58:27: but also it affects the adults.

00:58:29: And then if the money is in the hand of the woman,

00:58:32: she can use it to educate the kids.

00:58:34: She can use it to maybe get a lamp

00:58:37: to get light in the house for her kids

00:58:40: or they are studying.

00:58:41: She can use it for having much more healthier

00:58:44: or following with a doctor if there is any issue.

00:58:48: So all of this, the ripple effect is amazing.

00:58:52: So providing know-how to women,

00:58:55: empowering the women to have the decision-making

00:58:59: in their hands as part and parcel of the household,

00:59:02: allowing them to maybe increase their productivity

00:59:06: or increase the nutritional value of their produce.

00:59:10: All of this really have a huge benefit on the whole family

00:59:16: and the community.

00:59:19: - I'm glad we talked about that.

00:59:20: That's a very, very important issue.

00:59:24: But we are coming now really,

00:59:26: I mean, the end has been 10 minutes ago,

00:59:28: but it was absolutely, absolutely wonderful to talk to you.

00:59:34: And I'm glad you, because I read that you were once on a track

00:59:38: to become Morocco's first female fighter pilot.

00:59:42: So I'm glad we have you in science.

00:59:45: - You too, believe me, Sebel.

00:59:47: I'm so happy.

00:59:49: - Yeah, and I wish you all the best and whatever I can do,

00:59:54: please let me know.

00:59:55: And I hope our listeners have a couple of ideas

00:59:59: and maybe pick up the phone and call you

01:00:03: and give you a billion dollars or so.

01:00:05: - Thank you so much.

01:00:06: - Let's hope for it Sebel.

01:00:07: Thank you so much.

01:00:09: - You've been listening to a special English edition

01:00:12: of "De Goursa Neustadt",

01:00:14: a German podcast series by Zibilla Baden,

01:00:17: in which she talks to pioneering leaders

01:00:20: who are committed to making our world smarter, greener and fairer.

01:00:24: For more information, please visit www.zibillabaden.com

01:00:30: and the official site of the World Economic Forum.

01:00:34: (gentle music)

01:00:37: (light music)