00:00:00: The number one driver of land degradation in the world is our food systems.

00:00:04: So we are really talking about resetting our relationships with land

00:00:08: in terms of how we produce food, how much food we produce, how much water we harvest

00:00:13: and how much we are able to regenerate ecosystems that are already degraded or being degraded.

00:00:19: Welcome to the special English edition of Degorsa Neustadt,

00:00:24: a German podcast series by Zabilla Bart,

00:00:27: in which she talks to pioneering leaders who, inspired by the World Economic Forum's

00:00:32: Great Reset Initiative, create revolutionary projects that actually do make our world

00:00:38: smarter, greener and fairer.

00:00:40: Land degradation is one of the most pressing yet often overlooked crises of our time.

00:00:49: Right now, 40% of the world's land is already degraded,

00:00:53: affecting nearly half of humanity.

00:00:56: Every year, we lose another 100 million hectares, an area the size of Egypt.

00:01:02: This isn't just an environmental problem.

00:01:04: It threatens food security, fuels migration and drives conflict.

00:01:09: So the big question is, who is leading the way in reversing this crisis?

00:01:13: Today, I am honored to be speaking with Ibrahim Shaw,

00:01:17: Executive Secretary of the United Nations Convention to Combat Desertification, UNCCD.

00:01:24: His organization is at the forefront of restoring 1.5 billion hectares of degraded land by 2030.

00:01:31: With over 40 years of experience in global environmental leadership,

00:01:37: Ibrahim has shaped policies at the UNCCD, the UN Environment Program and the UN Framework

00:01:44: Convention on Climate Change.

00:01:45: His expertise spans forestry, sustainable development and global climate resilience.

00:01:53: Recently, he was recognized as one of the top 10 most red salt leaders on nature,

00:01:58: a testament to his influence in driving global awareness and action.

00:02:02: Good morning, Ibrahim and first of all congratulations on this recognition.

00:02:08: Thank you very much, Sibel. Good morning.

00:02:11: So we have a lot to talk about and I think we start with understanding the global land crisis.

00:02:21: Can we start with the big picture and unfortunately quite alarming reality?

00:02:28: The big picture is that 40% of the land is degraded.

00:02:37: In some parts of the world, severely degraded and the population is growing, the demands are growing.

00:02:48: So in a way, we are depleting the natural capital, which is sustaining life on Earth.

00:02:54: When we talk about degraded, to what degree do you talk about degraded?

00:03:01: We say degraded when the land is not in balance anymore.

00:03:07: So you have ecosystems that are being depleted or habitat that is being degraded.

00:03:15: Soils are being lost and the quality of the water is diminishing.

00:03:21: So these are indicators that something is going wrong on our land.

00:03:26: When one looks at the statistics, it is quite a frightening picture we see here.

00:03:34: And you were speaking with your fellow experts in Davos this year earlier.

00:03:42: And I remember that you said by 2050, if we carry on like that,

00:03:49: we will have lost land equivalent to the size of South America.

00:03:54: So what does it tell us about the scale of the challenge?

00:03:58: The challenge is really to continue to feed a growing population and a growing middle class

00:04:07: while maintaining our ecosystems.

00:04:11: So at the moment, we are extracting much more resources than nature can regenerate itself.

00:04:21: So since we have a growing demand and nature is not in a position to

00:04:32: restablish itself, so in a way we are eroding our capacity to produce food and good quality food.

00:04:39: And we are eroding our economy since 50% of the GDP of the world is derived from nature.

00:04:46: So it is alarming.

00:04:48: When you say 50% of the GDP of the world comes from nature,

00:04:56: can you go a little deeper into that?

00:04:59: What that actually means?

00:05:01: In essence, our food is coming from land essentially.

00:05:07: 99% of our calories are provided for by land, by our land.

00:05:12: In a way, our terrestrial ecosystems, including biodiversity that is found on land,

00:05:21: not talking about marine biodiversity, but terrestrial biodiversity is absolutely critical.

00:05:28: In a way, part of our medicines are coming from land and from biodiversity.

00:05:33: In a way, part of the air we breathe is coming from the land and water we drink.

00:05:39: Good quality water we drink is also coming from the land.

00:05:42: So all of that, if you estimate the contribution in terms of services that are provided to humanity,

00:05:49: it is estimated that it represents half of global wealth.

00:05:55: So we hear a lot about climate change and biodiversity laws,

00:06:01: but land degradation often gets less attention.

00:06:05: Why is that?

00:06:06: We take land for granted.

00:06:10: We have always considered that land can continue to produce the services without even asking it

00:06:17: anything. And therefore, we have not paid much attention to it.

00:06:23: Secondly, I think there has been in the past some misunderstanding about this convention that I

00:06:29: have the honor of leading, because the title is Desert Convention to Combat Desertification.

00:06:36: And desertification has been associated somehow with deserts.

00:06:40: So those people who do not live in deserts or close to deserts feel safe.

00:06:44: But the concept of land degradation is much broader than just sand dunes or barren land

00:06:53: that is found somewhere in the world.

00:06:55: So the whole of humanity lives on land.

00:06:59: And therefore, this is our capital.

00:07:04: It is important whether you live in a boreal forest or in a glacier somewhere or in a mountain or

00:07:09: in the Sahel, you live on land and we live off land.

00:07:14: Therefore, it is important that we consider this as a national capital.

00:07:19: We will not be able to achieve anything on biodiversity conservation or on climate change

00:07:25: unless we also include the absolute necessity to protect land and conserve it and to make sure

00:07:32: that we continue to benefit from it.

00:07:35: And it's, I think, also important to see it all interconnected, because we talk also a lot about

00:07:42: water and but all in single, yeah, we divide it into single problems.

00:07:49: Are we on the wrong path here?

00:07:51: We are, because we are not taking the planet as a whole.

00:07:56: We are taking bits and pieces.

00:07:58: And if for those who are familiar with the concept of the planetary boundaries

00:08:04: that have been developed by scientists and tested for many years

00:08:11: out of the nine planetary boundaries, seven have already been surplus,

00:08:15: meaning that we no longer live in a safe space in terms of the planet being able to reproduce itself.

00:08:23: And according to the main scientists that have been developing this, including Johann Rockstrom,

00:08:31: who is in the Post-Dame Institute of Climate here in Germany, according to them,

00:08:37: most of the seven planetary boundaries that have been surplus have a connection with land.

00:08:43: So it is therefore important that we see this.

00:08:47: And it is not difficult to understand it because as human beings, we live on the land.

00:08:51: We are terrestrial species.

00:08:53: Therefore, our impact on land is much higher than our impact on oceans, let's say, or in space.

00:09:02: Your organization has set a goal of restoring 1.5 billion hectares of land by 2030.

00:09:12: So if we look at what you were saying, that everything is interconnected, how feasible is this?

00:09:20: It is not an easy task.

00:09:24: Let me just be very honest with everybody.

00:09:27: But it is feasible in a sense that we are not talking about the public sector only coming to plant trees.

00:09:36: We are not talking about tree planting only.

00:09:37: We are talking about agriculture.

00:09:39: So we already have an impact on land through our farms.

00:09:44: So every farmer, small or large, has a role to play in land restoration.

00:09:50: We are talking about new techniques of agroforestry that are more integrated.

00:09:58: We are talking about regenerative agriculture.

00:10:00: So the number one driver of land degradation in the world is our food systems.

00:10:06: So we are really talking about resetting our relationships with land in terms of how we produce food,

00:10:11: how much food we produce, how much water we harvest, and how much we are able to regenerate

00:10:18: ecosystems that are already degraded or being degraded.

00:10:21: So we are not talking about 1.5 billion hectares of barren land that needs to be put back to health.

00:10:29: We are talking about land that may be slightly degraded and land that may be severely degraded.

00:10:35: Both, I mean, all together combined is only 1.5 billion hectares that we are talking about.

00:10:42: Now, let me also confirm that commitments have already been made by countries

00:10:48: to the tune of 900 million hectares of land to be restored.

00:10:54: So we are not starting from scratch.

00:10:55: We are really saying we need to probably enhance our capacity and we need to certainly boost our

00:11:06: capacity to have a restoration economy rather than having piloting projects.

00:11:12: So there are large-scale restoration programs that are going on in the world today,

00:11:17: but we need to boost them.

00:11:19: But we also need to make sure that private investors do no longer consider land restoration

00:11:26: as a non-repayable investment, but rather as a business, as a profitable business.

00:11:31: And it is possible to have it as a profitable business.

00:11:35: Yeah. Can I just, because you mentioned the number one driver are our food systems.

00:11:42: What exactly does that mean?

00:11:44: The impact we are having on land as human beings,

00:11:47: land degradation is due essentially to two factors.

00:11:52: One is human activities.

00:11:53: The other one is climate change, changing climates.

00:11:57: So human activities are essentially for food production or for animal feed.

00:12:03: But animal feed is also for our food in a way.

00:12:06: And secondly, it's cotton production for our fashion.

00:12:12: So these are the two main, so if you combine them, it's all agriculture with a capital A,

00:12:19: because essentially we are extracting resources from the land through planting some sort of

00:12:27: vegetation that we are harvesting for some sort of needs.

00:12:31: When we look at the human and economic impact of land degradation,

00:12:39: what are the biggest social and economic consequences?

00:12:45: Land degradation is essentially, and land degradation is soil loss.

00:12:52: And soil loss is essentially the erosion of our capacity to produce food.

00:12:58: And to produce nutritious food.

00:13:00: In a way, land degradation is an infection on our soil and our vegetation and water.

00:13:09: So in very simple terms, we are depleting the capital that we are using to produce food.

00:13:17: So food insecurity is one of the number one risks of land degradation.

00:13:24: We may not be able to produce enough food for a growing population.

00:13:28: And according to some scientists, we may need to produce up to 70% more food by 2050,

00:13:35: according to the Food and Agriculture Organization.

00:13:38: So how can we produce more food for a growing population and a growing middle class?

00:13:43: I have to say it's a combination of both.

00:13:46: So how can we produce more food for a growing population and a growing middle class?

00:13:51: Of both.

00:13:52: So how can we produce more food when nature is being depleted?

00:13:56: So we have shrinking resources and a growing demand.

00:14:00: So somehow we have to reconcile this to no question that we need to feed everybody.

00:14:07: No question that no one should go to bed hungry.

00:14:11: But the question is, how can we do that at the same time achieve the sustainability

00:14:17: and the protection of our planet, so people and planets together?

00:14:21: Land degradation has more severe consequences in terms of forced migration.

00:14:31: You see, when a family, when a family had mother or father,

00:14:36: is no longer able to feed their people, their children, they lose anything, including their

00:14:45: dignity. Therefore, they have no choice but to go somewhere else to recover that dignity

00:14:54: and to secure their family. And that migration can be short migration, can be seasonal migration,

00:15:02: can be far away migration or close migration. So you can go to the next city, to the next country,

00:15:09: to the next region or further afield. But it is not possible to stay in the same place.

00:15:15: What is left to the young gentleman or girl from Haiti to do but to flee when they cannot

00:15:23: produce anymore for their families? What is left to the young gentleman or girl from the Sahel to do

00:15:31: when they can no longer produce? They will not stay in the same place until,

00:15:35: you know, until they die, essentially. So land degradation is also an amplifier of conflicts.

00:15:43: Competition over access to fertile land and water is much higher right now than it was the case

00:15:52: when the population was smaller in size. So therefore, the more you need to produce,

00:16:00: the more mouth that you have to feed, the higher the competition for access to scarce land and water

00:16:11: and land degradation provides that scarcity that we are talking about. So it is therefore an amplifier

00:16:17: of conflicts and you see growing conflicts all over the world, especially in dry lands

00:16:25: where people have no longer the capacity to have a balanced life. So it happens in Somalia,

00:16:32: it happens in the Sahel, it happens in Syria. You see most of the conflicts in the world

00:16:39: happen in areas where there is scarcity of land, fertile land and water.

00:16:44: When you say that we already suffer from 40% of degraded land and as a result of that,

00:16:52: we have food insecurity, this growing migration, etc. Should we not call it an emergency?

00:17:03: It is an emergency. It is indeed an emergency. We, you see, the question is how can we call it a

00:17:14: global emergency? Yeah, it is already an emergency at the local level in regional, in some regions,

00:17:21: but the response we have so far as humanity, as good soldiers as we are, is to help them get

00:17:28: more food. So we ship tons of food to provide them with emergency responses, food distribution,

00:17:38: and we have humanitarian response. What we need to do is to move away from being reactive

00:17:45: to being proactive. What we have been good doing in some parts of the world is to build walls of

00:17:55: fences in order to protect ourselves from migrants that are coming to invade us. We are not good

00:18:03: enough in trying to help those people who are migrating stay home and restore their land in

00:18:10: order to produce and keep the dignity of theirs and their families and the safety of their families.

00:18:17: What we are not good at is to help them with different techniques, reduce the impact of droughts.

00:18:27: We are very good at responding to emergencies, in other words, and we should shift now our

00:18:37: attention and invest more on a proactive way in areas where we know that there are risks of

00:18:45: explosion, implosion, and these risks are not local. We know that there are multiple links

00:18:53: right now between forced migration and insecurity. We know that there are links between land degradation

00:19:02: and global security from around the world. If these are well understood by decision makers,

00:19:10: by private sector investors, then it may be easier to change that narrative. But for now,

00:19:19: they are seeing us poor people, let's ship some food, they will be safe.

00:19:24: I remember at your panel, there was also the president of Iraq talking about the devastating

00:19:34: impact of war on land. What do those conflict and post-conflict regions need to restore their land?

00:19:47: What they need most is two things. One is policies at the national level that would reduce the risks.

00:19:59: Policies meaning they need to incentivize investments in their countries. They probably need to review

00:20:09: some land-tunnel regulations in order to attract more investments. They need to secure their own

00:20:18: people, indigenous people, women and young people who are investing on land. So policy change is

00:20:25: absolutely important and they need to reduce land harmful subsidies that are depleting the land

00:20:34: right now in order to repurpose that investment, that public money for land restoration.

00:20:40: What they also need is to look at new technologies that exist at the moment and see how these can

00:20:48: be invested in a positive way to help restore the land. What that would mean that they will probably

00:20:59: need to go and build some public-private partnerships or blended finance of some sort in order to

00:21:07: bring investors to land not as a non-repayable investment but as a profitable business.

00:21:16: Land restoration can be profitable provided there are right policies and regulations at the national

00:21:23: level and provided that countries also reduce the harmful subsidies that are poured right now

00:21:30: from public money. Taxpayers are basically using their own money to degrade the land

00:21:38: which should be that that is the foundation of their economy. Again 50 percent of the GDP. So it

00:21:45: is important that we understand this and reset our relationships both public sector and the

00:21:52: private sector. When I prepared myself for the conversation with you I did quite a bit of research

00:22:01: and I kept on seeing the number 50 which was really a concern. 50 percent it said of land

00:22:10: worldwide is not declared meaning its ownership is unknown. So how can that be? How can that be?

00:22:21: We are talking on the one hand about 40 percent of the land in the world is degraded

00:22:27: and on the other hand I see the numbers and I actually want to verify it with you whether it

00:22:34: is true. We are saying 50 percent of the land worldwide is not declared. So who do we hold

00:22:41: to account here? You see there are multiple reasons why the 50 percent I cannot confirm but

00:22:50: I know it's a large proportion of land of the land that is not properly documented

00:22:57: and people do not have documents and that may due to multiple reasons. One is customary law

00:23:06: still is very present in many parts of the world. It doesn't mean that that land doesn't belong to

00:23:14: anybody but it belongs to a community so it is not individualized. It is not like in the west

00:23:20: where everybody has an individual piece of land. In many parts of the of the countries of the world

00:23:29: you have tribes and communities and pastoralists and farmers who own land in common

00:23:36: and they know where the boundaries are between the different communities so it is not

00:23:43: that they don't know but they don't have documents for that. In most parts of the world you also have

00:23:49: small holders including women who are producing but do not own the land. It is very clear that only

00:24:00: 15 percent of agricultural land is owned by women whereas they have their hands in most

00:24:11: of the land that is produced right now for small holders. They actually according to some studies

00:24:19: they have a contribution up to 80 percent of the small farmers economy but they only own 15 percent

00:24:31: of the land and in some regions that 15 percent that percentage can go down as slow as 4 percent

00:24:39: like in the Middle East and North Africa region only 4 percent of the land is owned by women.

00:24:44: So that is also a fact. There are lots of disparities and that insecurity that vulnerability

00:24:51: is one of the reasons why they are not investing on land restoration because they don't have the

00:24:58: security and because they don't have the documents the titles that would make them eligible to any

00:25:08: funding from a bank they cannot use it as a collateral therefore that land is left unattended

00:25:16: or little very little investments and what we do as humanity we are very good at harvesting

00:25:23: and extracting but not necessarily good at reinvesting to rebuild that capital. So land tenure is one of

00:25:31: the really challenges that we face at the moment in terms of land restoration because no one will

00:25:39: come on someone else's land and invest for 30 years for 50 years before they see that how long it takes

00:25:46: to regenerate ecosystems. So yes, land tenure is a big issue. One additional question to that.

00:25:58: One of our previous guests talked about how investment banks, foundations, royal families,

00:26:05: corporations bought and still buy thousands and hundreds of hectares of land but because of

00:26:13: legal loopholes they can't be helped to account. So who controls them? Who approaches them?

00:26:21: Inequalities are important from around the world and large holders are essentially

00:26:28: amongst the most important contributors to land degradation in the world

00:26:38: because unlike small holders who have nothing else than the piece of land that they hold on

00:26:49: large holders can have multiple other revenues. They have other assets. Small land holders have

00:26:56: nothing else but as an asset but they land. So they have to survive on that land and they will

00:27:03: do everything possible to maintain the productivity of that small piece of land.

00:27:07: Whereas large holders have they can diversify, they can diverse here and reinvest there and

00:27:16: it is therefore important that we all consider land for what it is which is the natural capital. So

00:27:22: it is important for all investors, for all business people, be they

00:27:28: from large corporations or large families that they understand that the four capitals,

00:27:39: it is important to maintain the relationship between the financial capital, the human capital,

00:27:46: the social capital and the natural capital. There is, we live in a world where if we want to

00:27:53: achieve anything meaningful on the planet that we all play our role and we all take responsibility

00:28:00: regardless of who we are and regardless of how how large is the size of the portfolio or how deep is

00:28:07: the pocket. So I think we quite stated now the global state of land degradation and its problems.

00:28:14: We want to talk now about how do we reverse it. So and let's start with COP16

00:28:27: which launched the Riyadh Global Drought Resilience Partnership with a 12.15 billion

00:28:36: dollar pledge. What do you expect from this initiative?

00:28:40: Riyadh COP16 was a turning point as far as land but more importantly drought is concerned.

00:28:52: The Riyadh partnership aims at shifting the way we deal with drought. Before the COP,

00:29:04: the conference of the parties in Riyadh, I met with many leaders from around the world

00:29:08: who were telling me essentially we can do nothing with drought. This is God-given and

00:29:15: what can we do as humanity and my our task was to convince them that while you cannot stop

00:29:24: droughts from occurring you can mitigate the impact of drought on humanity.

00:29:30: So therefore we need to shift from the reactive mode which is essentially providing humanitarian

00:29:37: support to a more proactive mode which goes from early warning systems with now science and technology.

00:29:49: It is possible to anticipate and to prepare from early warning to building drought resilience,

00:29:59: to economic resilience, resilience of ecosystems, resilience of societies and communities, going

00:30:06: all the way down to humanitarian aid.

00:30:09: So it is a package that needs to be developed.

00:30:12: So the Riyadh partnership is essentially a partnership that will be bringing together

00:30:19: the lowest economies in the world, the LDCs and the lower middle income countries, together

00:30:26: with financial institutions and hopefully a larger pool of financial institutions.

00:30:34: In Riyadh we only got 10, but we hope we will get more in order to build that partnership

00:30:40: and forge that alliance whereby public money will be blended with private investments in

00:30:47: order to bring that shift that we are talking about and for those countries who can lose

00:30:54: up to 20% of the economy with one event of drought for the poorest of the poor countries.

00:31:02: So building that resilience means that building a more resilient economy for them so that

00:31:08: they don't have a drop of 10 to 20% of the economy overnight, which is really a disaster.

00:31:17: So the Riyadh partnership is really to build that alliance of partners, institutions, actors,

00:31:25: civil society organizations and private companies to actually join forces with science and technology

00:31:32: and technical institutions partners to turn the tide on drought.

00:31:43: And yeah, absolutely.

00:31:45: And we have of course also reached already some success through global alliances.

00:31:52: And I would like to look into a few with you and hopefully you can tell us a bit more about

00:32:01: it.

00:32:02: For example, the great green wall in Africa.

00:32:07: Let's start with that.

00:32:08: The great green wall is an initiative of African governments.

00:32:15: Initially it was 11 countries from Senegal to Djibouti and Eritrea from Mauritania and

00:32:26: Senegal to Djibouti and Eritrea and coming together to join forces and develop a joint

00:32:35: program.

00:32:36: It is not a project.

00:32:37: It is a partnership once again to restore 100 million hectares of land, of degraded

00:32:44: land across the, I mean all along in the basically the southern border of the Sahara.

00:32:56: It got political support from the African Union and these different countries came to merge

00:33:04: the force and combine the force to combat desertification and to propose land restoration.

00:33:11: Many people initially saw it with a smile saying that yes, it is one of these good projects,

00:33:19: but it will never succeed because it is difficult.

00:33:22: Indeed, it is difficult.

00:33:25: We are dealing here with the poorest region in the world.

00:33:29: We are dealing here with the highest growth rate in terms of population growth.

00:33:37: We are having here the most severely degraded ecosystem in the world, the Sahara and the

00:33:45: Sahel and probably the largest desert in the world.

00:33:49: So if we were looking for a difficult case, we got it.

00:33:57: So the great green world is therefore that ambition to restore land and to bring it back

00:34:04: to health in order to produce more food for a growing population, in order to propose

00:34:12: to promote stability and security for millions of people from around the Sahel.

00:34:19: Now a lot of progress has been made, but a long way to go to actually achieve the ambition

00:34:26: of 100 million hectares.

00:34:29: The good thing about it is that it has served now as an example, as an example to many other

00:34:37: regions, including the Middle East with the Middle East Green Initiative, which is promoted

00:34:44: essentially by the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia, 200 million hectares of land to be restored

00:34:50: between Central Asia all the way to North Africa and some countries in Sub-Saharan Africa.

00:34:57: And then the southern African countries of the Sardic region, the southern African developed

00:35:01: community region, also decided to have its own great green world in the south.

00:35:07: So I think there is an understanding right now that large-scale restoration programs

00:35:13: can work and they can produce good results.

00:35:17: And countries are willing to put their money, be it domestic money or through loans, combined

00:35:24: with grants in order to regenerate these ecosystems for agriculture, for ecotourism, all the mining

00:35:33: sites that can be restored in order to bring that land back to health and produce again,

00:35:39: or simply to restore wetlands and water points that are essential for food.

00:35:46: I have to say that in Latin America, there is a similar initiative called Dry Corridor

00:35:53: that is also affecting all the countries in that region that would be, that are willing

00:35:59: to work together.

00:36:00: So I think it is being replicated in many parts of the world.

00:36:05: I was very happy to see that Uzbekistan is also investing a lot of resources in the RLC

00:36:11: together with Kazakhstan to restore that land.

00:36:14: China is known as being the number one country in terms of land restoration in the world,

00:36:22: not only in the Los Plateau, but also in the Taklamakan Desert and in the northwestern part

00:36:27: of the country.

00:36:28: So it is, I think, blooming as investments, but mostly private public investments, mostly

00:36:38: public investments for now.

00:36:42: When you, just for clarification, when you talk about to restore 100 million hectares

00:36:50: of land or 200 million hectares of land, and I remember that you mentioned in Davos that

00:36:59: please don't imagine it is only planting trees.

00:37:05: Can you go into a bit more detail what it actually means on the ground?

00:37:11: We are talking about, of course, we are talking about restoring ecosystems.

00:37:15: So don't get me wrong.

00:37:16: We also need to restore ecosystems.

00:37:18: But in the Sahel, the program has six components, including renewable energy.

00:37:28: You can do nothing without energy.

00:37:31: So you need to reduce food loss, post harvest loss, and that can be improved through energy

00:37:41: and conserving the food that otherwise will be brought by the sun.

00:37:45: So using that same sun and solar radiation to produce cold in order to conserve the food.

00:37:54: So in other words, it's transforming heat to cold and conserving food.

00:38:02: And therefore renewable energy is important.

00:38:05: It has a component on social aspects like women and children and young people.

00:38:14: It is now in the Sahel.

00:38:18: The Sahel has the youngest population in the world and the fastest growing population in

00:38:24: the world.

00:38:25: So otherwise, unless you invest in these young people, you will not achieve anything meaningful.

00:38:30: So it is important that you invest in them and you help them be what we call land entrepreneurs.

00:38:37: So young entrepreneurs that are reinvesting on the land in order to have a more integrated

00:38:42: approach in producing food, but also being able to process that food and create the added

00:38:49: value that is absolutely necessary before they ship it to the next city or to the next

00:38:56: countries.

00:38:58: So it's a transformation that is needed there that goes beyond just ecosystem restoration,

00:39:05: but also includes ecosystem restoration.

00:39:08: But it is essentially food, energy, peace and security, water quality in order to make sure

00:39:16: that you have water, not only for drinking, but also for irrigation, for agriculture and

00:39:22: so forth.

00:39:23: And saving water is an essential part of it.

00:39:27: But this is exactly what they lack, food, water, peace, security.

00:39:34: And jobs.

00:39:35: And jobs.

00:39:36: Yeah.

00:39:37: So how can we do better?

00:39:40: Well, essentially the program is to help them get, you know, to, for the program to provide

00:39:46: responses to these solutions.

00:39:49: You see, in this hell, since you are bringing me, bringing me back to that point, we have

00:39:59: insecurity and extreme violence is going on there.

00:40:03: And most of these young people, they are not doing it because they are, you know, they

00:40:09: have a religious belief or whatever.

00:40:11: It is not about their religion.

00:40:13: They are doing it because they have nothing else to do.

00:40:16: And when they get 100 or $200, it's a lot of money for them.

00:40:19: They don't ask where that money is coming from.

00:40:22: So therefore they can be driven to a process which was, which is not initially theirs, but

00:40:28: simply because they have no other choice.

00:40:30: So it is clear that we need to understand that the military responses that were provided

00:40:37: at that time and are still provided will not be sufficient to bring peace back because

00:40:41: we are not talking about armies that are fighting each other.

00:40:45: Even armies will have to sit in a negotiating table at some point in time.

00:40:50: So it is important that we understand that the big disease that is affecting the Sahel

00:40:55: right now is really a crisis of ecosystems, land, water and capacity to produce food and

00:41:03: to essentially bring peace and security to families.

00:41:11: We have all these United Nations organizations.

00:41:15: We have the willing of the private public partnerships.

00:41:20: And yet we are kind of going into circles.

00:41:24: It seems from where I am standing.

00:41:26: Am I wrong?

00:41:28: We need to really rethink all together with humility.

00:41:34: I think that's the point number one.

00:41:37: No one should be certain that this is the solution and the only solution.

00:41:42: Secondly, we need to understand that investing in land restoration is an investment.

00:41:50: This is something that is providing short term, short term, but most importantly long term

00:41:57: gains.

00:41:59: So governments will have to come together with private sector.

00:42:03: At the moment, what we observe is that investments from the private sector on land restoration

00:42:12: globally represent 6% of the investments that have been made so far.

00:42:17: So somehow the public sector and we as United Nations have not been able to either we have

00:42:26: not been able to track investments that have been made or we have not been able to convince

00:42:32: the private sector to invest on land restoration rather than just investing on extraction of

00:42:39: minerals and resources.

00:42:42: So it is, I think, a responsibility that we all have to say that yes, we need to reset

00:42:52: our relationship.

00:42:53: We are not winning the battle at the moment.

00:42:58: Looking at China's success in the transformation, do you think this top down approach is maybe

00:43:09: something we should all take a look at?

00:43:14: I don't think we can have a straight jacket and say that yes, they have been successful

00:43:19: in one part of the world because of their system.

00:43:22: They have a system, they have a government system which is theirs.

00:43:26: It works for them.

00:43:28: Whether that system will work for other countries, I don't know.

00:43:31: I think every country will have to design its own plan according to its sociology, according

00:43:37: to its political systems in order to come up with a solution.

00:43:46: The one thing in common that all countries have is that there is a responsibility from

00:43:53: governments, regardless of the regimes or the elections and so forth.

00:43:58: There is a responsibility that we all need to understand and we all need to really take

00:44:05: very seriously.

00:44:07: Government restoration is compulsory.

00:44:11: We do not have additional land.

00:44:13: There is no planet B. If you have a growing population and shrinking resources, I think

00:44:20: that is sufficient a warning that something is not going right in the world.

00:44:28: It would not be sufficient to hide in the national borders of one country just to think

00:44:35: that that is their problem, they will fix it.

00:44:38: We all are the same planet and no matter how many walls are being built in the world, people

00:44:45: will migrate if they don't have a choice.

00:44:48: So it is, when a disease occurs, these infectious diseases, they don't know borders and we know

00:44:56: that there are lots of diseases in the world today, infectious diseases that are zoonotic,

00:45:02: originating from animals.

00:45:04: What is happening is that we as humans are destroying habitats and going to some places

00:45:09: where we were not before and we don't have the immunity against these new diseases, new

00:45:16: infectious diseases.

00:45:18: So if the World Health Organization keeps telling us that up to 75% of new infectious diseases

00:45:24: are coming from animals and some of these diseases are unknown to us, it means that

00:45:30: we have brought them to our families.

00:45:33: They were somewhere else, they existed these viruses.

00:45:37: So it is therefore important that we understand that land degradation has multiple other consequences,

00:45:43: including health, including economy, including security and peace and so forth.

00:45:47: So it is, we are all interconnected as society and humanity.

00:45:52: Earlier on, you started on talking about technology and AI when I probably rudely interrupted

00:45:59: you.

00:46:00: When AI and satellite monitoring and other technologies help with the complexity?

00:46:09: Yes.

00:46:13: Thank you for raising that question.

00:46:16: In my view, two conditions have to be met in order to achieve the ambitions of ours.

00:46:26: One is the policy, at the policy level.

00:46:29: So we should have more consistency of decisions when cops are being organized and there are

00:46:36: multiple cops being organized every year.

00:46:38: So it's not only biodiversity or climate or land degradation, there are multiple other

00:46:43: cops but they are all interconnected.

00:46:45: Like land is interconnected with pollution.

00:46:47: We did not even mention the pollution conventions that are there.

00:46:53: So it's a very complex issue.

00:46:56: So policy has to be more consistent and we have science that is now clear.

00:47:02: And scientists are doing a great job in trying to explain the connectivity between these two

00:47:10: different issues.

00:47:12: Second condition is the technology aspect that you are talking about.

00:47:16: We have tools right now which our grandparents or even our parents did not have.

00:47:21: And probably our children will have more tools than we do have.

00:47:25: So it is important that all of these tools are now being deployed as far as land, climate,

00:47:33: biodiversity and nature is concerned to actually bring these solutions there because we have

00:47:40: more intelligence.

00:47:42: We have more intelligence, meaning, you know, we have more.

00:47:46: It's not Intel.

00:47:47: I would, otherwise I would doubt it, yes.

00:47:51: We have more tools right now.

00:47:56: We have satellites, you are right.

00:47:58: We have drones that can help a lot.

00:48:01: And we have, even in nuclear science, can help us with civil applications that are absolutely

00:48:08: fascinating coming together in terms of water saving, in terms of erosion, reducing erosion

00:48:16: in the world and so forth, in food production.

00:48:19: So I think it is a package that needs to be put in place and some sort of transformation

00:48:27: of those institutions that were created 80 years ago, 60 years ago, 40 years ago, to actually

00:48:34: bring them to the new world that we have in front of us.

00:48:40: And that technology will also mean that as far as land is concerned, that our farmers,

00:48:50: you see, on average, farmers, small holders, are 60 years old on average.

00:48:59: So in a way, the youth of the world, the 1 billion young people in the world that are

00:49:04: ready to engage are not yet fully associated with agriculture because it's painful.

00:49:09: It's manual.

00:49:10: It's not attractive to them.

00:49:15: Yet they have now new technologies that can be helping them with a little bit of support.

00:49:23: Probably you can create new businesses that are very adapted to the new world that we

00:49:32: are in essentially deploying the artificial intelligence and new technologies that we

00:49:37: are talking about.

00:49:38: I think it is possible, but it will require some coordination.

00:49:46: It will require some leadership in some countries instead of fighting each other and competing,

00:49:52: maybe joining forces and seeing how can we do this for good, AI for good, business for

00:49:59: good, and certainly taking care of the planet will require more cooperation than exists

00:50:06: at the moment.

00:50:11: If we look from a different perspective, that for example, many countries enjoy living in

00:50:17: the fourth industrial revolution already, and probably half of the world's citizens

00:50:24: haven't even reached the second industrial revolution, meaning they can't even enjoy

00:50:30: energy security.

00:50:32: And yet when we talk about technology, finance, partnerships, AI, we cannot seriously leave

00:50:43: to tackle land degradation or water problems to the one single farmer between Sahel and

00:50:52: Saudi Arabia.

00:50:54: Don't we need stronger collaboration here and stronger communities and of course far

00:50:59: more commitment?

00:51:00: Yes.

00:51:01: And the question is how can we accelerate access by these small farmers to technology?

00:51:10: And they are not closing their doors.

00:51:13: They are very open and you go to any place, remote village, somewhere in Africa you will

00:51:21: find that they have mobile technology.

00:51:23: Or if they don't, maybe the new technology using satellites will help them have access

00:51:28: to that technology.

00:51:30: So I think we are in a revolution that can, even though they may be in the second revolution,

00:51:36: they may actually shift right away to the first technology without necessarily, so in

00:51:41: a way it can be accelerated.

00:51:45: This is one of the ambitions of the Riyadh-Draut-Risilians partnership that we talked about earlier.

00:51:52: The early warning systems that we are talking about are not using traditional technologies.

00:51:58: We are advocating for access to new technologies to those communities who may have maybe 2G,

00:52:06: 3G, satellite, I mean network that can be boosted to a much larger technology, access

00:52:12: to technology.

00:52:14: And the role of governments here.

00:52:17: Governments have budgets, governments have taxes, wouldn't be in for the, and this is

00:52:23: just an idea.

00:52:24: I hope you can respond positively to that.

00:52:30: What would happen if government calls a kind of state of an emergency in poorer countries

00:52:35: and says, okay, here we go.

00:52:37: This is what our country needs to restore the land, help with the water and all the problems

00:52:43: you mentioned.

00:52:45: We pre-finance it and the farmers in our case here pay us back.

00:52:54: Is that a possibility?

00:52:57: Yes, it is.

00:52:59: But in my view, what governments ought to do first and foremost is to have adapted regulations.

00:53:09: Governments are here.

00:53:10: The most important function of a government is regulation.

00:53:16: Governments are not rich, they don't have large budgets.

00:53:20: And they only have budgets as far as they can take taxes from you and myself.

00:53:27: But the powerful tool they have is regulation that can attract more investments both from

00:53:35: the private sector, domestic private sector, or regional or even global.

00:53:40: You see, most of the poorest countries in the world have the largest assets in terms

00:53:47: of land, minerals, rare earth, and all the technology that is absolutely necessary to

00:53:57: get to the new net zero technologies that we are talking about.

00:54:03: So the question is how much good governance can be promoted there and how much interference

00:54:12: would be able to reduce interference to have these countries promote peace and security

00:54:20: in order to restore, to have a good value on their resources and to benefit from these

00:54:27: resources.

00:54:28: They have a lot of assets, but these are not used properly right now to generate sustainable

00:54:38: development, peace and security.

00:54:41: So there is another angle to that point that you are raising.

00:54:47: Since there is no peace and security, which may be really essentially due to extraction

00:54:55: and appetite from others, therefore the rate of investments is very high and there are

00:55:08: no incentives for companies to come and invest.

00:55:12: Let me give you an example.

00:55:14: How come that with all the renewable energy that we have in Africa, only 2% of investments

00:55:23: on renewable energy in the world are coming to Africa?

00:55:26: What is that?

00:55:27: What is that?

00:55:28: Yes, and without energy, there is no land restoration.

00:55:38: There is no food security.

00:55:41: So energy is absolutely fascinating.

00:55:45: So why is it that investments are not coming to this continent?

00:55:49: Because essentially people do their math and they feel like it's risky to invest there.

00:55:57: Since it is risky, I will have a higher rate of the loan, so the dollar is much higher

00:56:02: in Africa than it is in Europe, for example, for investments in renewables.

00:56:08: So it is therefore they have more incentives and they feel more secure in investing in renewables

00:56:15: in Europe, even though there is no much sum in some parts of the world in some seasons.

00:56:21: So it is therefore an issue that should be looked at more globally, more coherently,

00:56:27: in a more cooperative way.

00:56:29: And it may be idealistic, an approach, or maybe naive, but I am absolutely convinced

00:56:38: that if everybody understands that there will be no peace and security in Europe or the

00:56:44: United States unless there is peace in the Middle East or Africa and there will be no

00:56:50: peace in no way unless there is peace in DRC, then it will be possible maybe to achieve

00:56:57: something in common.

00:56:59: I would like to round up our discussions now with, if you could state an urgent message

00:57:14: here to world leaders, what would it be?

00:57:18: When world leaders meet to consider the state of the planet, regardless of the cup they

00:57:26: attend, regardless of the label that is attributed to that cup, they should really look at the

00:57:32: planet as a whole.

00:57:35: And the nine planetary boundaries that have been identified by scientists and see that

00:57:43: understand that you cannot just address one boundary at the expense of the others.

00:57:51: Therefore it is important to have a more coherent approach.

00:57:54: It doesn't help that a doctor tries to treat a patient for disease while inducing other

00:58:04: diseases.

00:58:06: So it is important that we look at the body as a whole and see where we can actually treat

00:58:12: the body in a consistent and coherent manner.

00:58:18: I think that was a very clear message and I thank you for this really incredible discussions.

00:58:28: I think your insights highlight the urgency and the solutions we need to focus on.

00:58:34: We will be following the UNCCD's work closely, I certainly will.

00:58:42: And to our listeners I can say this is a global challenge that affects us all as we have heard

00:58:49: today.

00:58:50: Get involved, stay informed and take action where you can.

00:58:54: Thank you very much Ibrahim Schor for your knowledge that you shared with us today and

00:59:01: all the best and lots of energy.

00:59:05: Thank you very much Seville.

00:59:06: So it was good talking to you.

00:59:08: You've been listening to a special English edition of Degorsa Neustadt, a German podcast

00:59:14: series by Zabilla Baden in which she talks to pioneering leaders who are committed to

00:59:19: making our world smarter, greener and fairer.

00:59:23: For more information please visit www.zabillabaden.com and the official site of the World Economic

00:59:32: Forum.

00:59:32: (soft music)

00:59:35: (gentle music)

00:59:37: you