00:00:00: and the Chinese industry has accelerated to the point

00:00:04: that now they sell very competitive cars.

00:00:07: And I look forward to seeing them in the market

00:00:10: because they will be cheaper, more competitive,

00:00:13: more reliable, fantastic batteries.

00:00:16: They're really good because they took it seriously.

00:00:18: Now, to the point that now Europe needs to learn from China.

00:00:22: Welcome to the special English edition of "De Corsa Neustadt",

00:00:27: a German podcast series by Zabilla Bug,

00:00:30: in which she talks to pioneering leaders

00:00:32: who, inspired by the World Economic Forum's great reset initiative,

00:00:36: create revolutionary projects

00:00:38: that actually do make our world smarter, greener and fairer.

00:00:43: I am pleased to welcome Maria Mendeluz,

00:00:49: the Chief Executive Officer of the We Mean Business Coalition,

00:00:53: who was recently named one of Time's 100 most influential climate leaders in business.

00:01:00: With over 25 years of experience in sustainable development,

00:01:04: energy and climate action,

00:01:05: Maria has been at the forefront of driving global business leadership

00:01:10: in the fight against climate change.

00:01:12: Under her guidance, the Coalition has mobilized nearly 17,000 companies worldwide

00:01:19: to commit to reducing emissions in line with the Paris Agreement.

00:01:23: Her work continues to catalyze a transition to a net zero economy.

00:01:28: And today, we will talk about the need for radical collaboration,

00:01:33: enhancing corporate and governmental accountability,

00:01:37: the organization's 10-year anniversary,

00:01:40: as well as what lies ahead of us.

00:01:43: Good morning, Maria.

00:01:45: Ten years of We Mean Business Coalition.

00:01:47: Congratulations first.

00:01:50: Can you share with us the initial vision behind the organization?

00:01:55: Yes. Well, thank you very much for having me on this podcast.

00:01:59: It's a real pleasure to be with you

00:02:02: and pushing together for greater impact.

00:02:06: We need to position ourselves back in 2014,

00:02:09: when We Mean Business was created.

00:02:11: And what was the mindset of business and governments at that moment?

00:02:16: It was prior to the Paris Agreement

00:02:20: and there was not what now we call decisive action on climate.

00:02:24: So We Mean Business Coalition was founded with a very clear vision

00:02:29: to unite the power of business to accelerate climate action at global scale.

00:02:34: Initially, the goal was to create a collective voice for the private sector

00:02:38: that could push for more ambitious climate policies at the COP21 in Paris.

00:02:43: Within the first year of the Coalition, we saw the success of the Paris Agreement.

00:02:47: And over the past decade, this vision has evolved in response to the growing

00:02:53: needs of climate and nature to respond to the crisis.

00:02:58: The Coalition has expanded its focus from simply advocating for climate action

00:03:04: to actively supporting business in the transition to a natural economy.

00:03:09: This includes initiatives that help set science-based targets,

00:03:13: decarbonise supply chains, invest in nature and engage in policy advocacy.

00:03:19: The Coalition role has become increasingly pivotal in ensuring that businesses

00:03:24: not only commit to climate goals, but also achieve them in a manner

00:03:29: that promotes inclusivity and resilience.

00:03:33: Can I take you back to the beginning?

00:03:40: You received the first funding I read from the IKEA Foundation.

00:03:46: Well, it is clear that IKEA Foundation has very strong values

00:03:51: that are aligned with our values at We Mean Business.

00:03:55: And they saw that there was a necessity to bring the different business organizations

00:04:00: to collaborate, to unite against a single voice.

00:04:05: Until then, the different organizations that formed the Coalition

00:04:09: had their individual activities.

00:04:11: And we know that when we are together, we can be stronger and we can go farther.

00:04:16: And that's the philosophy behind the separation of We Mean Business.

00:04:20: IKEA Foundation has been such a fundamental partner in the life of

00:04:25: We Mean Business and continues to be.

00:04:28: Because they invested in a collaboration that had never been done before.

00:04:35: And so they had a lot of faith on our chair, Steve Howard,

00:04:40: and on the willingness of the CEOs of the Coalition partners

00:04:44: to be united and to work on this.

00:04:46: And it is true that everything we asked, except one thing

00:04:50: that we asked for the Paris Agreement, was included in the Paris Agreement.

00:04:54: So it was very successful.

00:04:56: And since then, they've been focusing and evolving with us,

00:05:00: in the corporate climate action journey.

00:05:05: But just coming back to your 10 years in business,

00:05:12: which would you consider the most significant achievements?

00:05:19: Well, so I think the first one was the Paris Agreement.

00:05:24: Even Christiana Figueres called the former CEO of We Mean Business,

00:05:29: Nigel Topping, the day of the Paris Agreement to thank them.

00:05:32: Because the voice of progressive business at that time

00:05:36: was fundamental for governments to go ahead and sign

00:05:39: the most ambitious climate agreement.

00:05:41: Then the coalition continued.

00:05:44: And in 2018, we were the first organization to say that we needed to keep the 1.5 targets.

00:05:52: It used to be two degrees, and then we moved it to 1.5.

00:05:55: That meant that a little bit later when COVID came,

00:05:59: we were the first ones as well to say, we need to build back better.

00:06:04: We need to take lessons from the COVID pandemic

00:06:07: and reinvest in ensuring that this will not happen again.

00:06:12: And also that climate change and nature and biodiversity laws,

00:06:15: which are bigger crisis, can be tackled by investing on this build back better.

00:06:22: On those infrastructure.

00:06:24: And then we have been behind and pushing the governments to set ambitious indices

00:06:30: in Europe, in the US.

00:06:32: And the policymakers have acknowledged the role of our coalition partners and ourselves

00:06:38: in pushing for that ambition.

00:06:40: And that means that both the US and Europe have an objective

00:06:45: that is aligned with what the science says we need to do by 2030.

00:06:48: Which is to have emissions.

00:06:51: And because there is a lot of emphasis from companies on net zero in 2050,

00:06:57: we say, well, that doesn't work.

00:06:59: We need to focus on what can be actionable in the next 10 years.

00:07:03: And that's why we created the campaign all in for 2030.

00:07:08: And now more recently in the last COP, and we're very proud of this,

00:07:12: we were the first organization to say, Vasta, we need to phase out for seal fuels.

00:07:19: You know, if you want to tackle, if you're serious about tackling climate change,

00:07:22: we need to tackle the very source of climate change, which is burning fossil fuels.

00:07:27: And so we mobilized around 200 companies.

00:07:30: They, we were very active on the lead up to COP 28.

00:07:36: And we're very happy to see this included in the final text, which is really,

00:07:41: and it's incredible to say, but because we should have included this day one.

00:07:47: But COP 28, finally, there is some text that says that we need to phase out for fuel.

00:07:52: That is, you know, the words.

00:07:55: I think.

00:07:56: Yeah, well, that's very impressive.

00:07:59: Because the COP 28 in Dubai marked the beginning of the end of the fossil fuel era.

00:08:08: And was the first time in history that we have a global agreement to transition away

00:08:15: from all fossil fuels.

00:08:16: And I think in line with science was the sentence.

00:08:20: So all of that goes back to your hard work and your idea of radical collaboration.

00:08:30: Obviously, there are many, many actors that are pushing in that direction.

00:08:34: But I think, you know, what we do is that we bring the business community in this direction.

00:08:41: And we know that these things are hard to say as a company, I'm going to phase out fossil fuels.

00:08:46: It's not easy because for some uses, there's no alternatives.

00:08:50: But we are not radical.

00:08:52: We're just saying, OK, from now until 2030, we're going to create a plan to transition away from

00:08:57: fossil fuels and then or unavated fossil fuels, honestly, because, you know, if we manage to

00:09:03: capture CO2, fantastic.

00:09:06: So it is pragmatic, but it's ambitious.

00:09:08: And it is, you know, we always need to push the next boundaries.

00:09:13: And I suppose that's what we do when we push the next boundary.

00:09:16: We work with leading companies so that they show that it is possible.

00:09:20: All the companies follow governments listen, and then they put in place policies

00:09:24: that will allow this to be implemented by the large majority of businesses.

00:09:29: This is the ambition loop.

00:09:31: And it's a key part of our theory of change.

00:09:34: And of course, the ambition and everything comes with collaboration and your drive for

00:09:42: collaboration.

00:09:43: Just looking at your seven founding partners, you have not only seven partners, but you also

00:09:52: work with another what 80 and probably by now more organizations that are really big players.

00:10:00: So can you explain a little bit about how this collaboration has been instrumental in driving

00:10:08: the coalition's goals?

00:10:10: Yes.

00:10:12: So, you know, I'm always remind of the importance of collaboration when I talk to companies.

00:10:20: And there's no single company that doesn't tell us I want to fight climate change.

00:10:26: I want to reduce my emissions, but I know that if I don't work with others,

00:10:30: there are many things that I cannot do by myself that we need to do together.

00:10:34: And so the business community is collaborating in unusual suspects.

00:10:39: Competitors are collaborating to tackle some of these most important challenges.

00:10:45: So the same happens with the coalition.

00:10:48: So we're very lucky to have incredible members, partners in the coalition,

00:10:54: that cover all parts of climate leadership from the accounting on emissions and disclosing,

00:11:00: which is CDP, to the actions that is B.S.R. and the World Business Council for Sustainable

00:11:07: Development of Cambridge Institute of Sustainable Leadership to advocacy with partners like CERIS,

00:11:14: B.Team, Cambridge Leaders Group and all ambitious commitments in terms of renewables

00:11:24: electric vehicles like the climate group. So it's an incredible group.

00:11:29: And I think the value of the collaboration is that instead of duplicating the work,

00:11:34: you know, once we are partners, you know that someone is going to be doing certain things.

00:11:39: Well, let's not duplicate. We know that CDP will be doing disclosure.

00:11:44: We have an incredible ambitious initiative on renewables.

00:11:49: So let's all point companies towards that initiative and let's all unite our voice

00:11:56: to advocate for the policy change that is needed.

00:11:58: Now, of course, these important, these partners are,

00:12:03: we're an are very important partners, but there are many more partners out there.

00:12:08: And so we entered into strategic partnerships with the Science-Based Target Initiative,

00:12:13: which actually we were one of the founding partners and it's been a key success of the

00:12:19: coalition with the B Lab, B Corporation, the B Corporation movement.

00:12:24: You know, we just spoke to them very recently and they are sending their companies for our

00:12:32: commitments, both the SMIC, Lama Hab, SBTI and our advocacy action to environment defense fund

00:12:39: and incredible Think Tank, American Think Tank for VCVCM, Votaical Market Initiative.

00:12:46: So and with those, we have more close relationships and then we work with many,

00:12:51: many partners because, you know, in any of the activities that we,

00:12:56: we do have at least three partners with whom we work and push for this because,

00:13:00: because it's just, this is not about being the smartest.

00:13:04: It's about working together to create this market thing together.

00:13:12: Can one say that the coalition's role is basically to push for company disclosures

00:13:19: through voluntary standards and regulations? Is that correct?

00:13:25: Well, we think that we talk to companies about the four A's of climate leadership.

00:13:33: So the first one is ambition. So we think, well, obviously first companies need to understand the

00:13:40: footprint. Okay. So we need to do some calculations and say, okay, this is my footprint,

00:13:46: scope one, which is the direct emissions, scope two, electricity emissions,

00:13:51: scope three, value chain emissions. And within scope three, that is very complicated,

00:13:55: understand where are the most material emissions. Okay. So once they know that, then

00:14:00: you say, you know, you should set a target. If you're a big company, go to SBTI. If you're small,

00:14:05: come to the SMIC Lama Hab, which is a program that we created and we're running

00:14:10: from winning business. Then we say, you just need to move to action. So you need to purchase 100%

00:14:15: renewables, electric vehicles and different, you know, chairmissions, steel and different

00:14:20: activities that companies are doing anyway. But, you know, we try to help them and remove

00:14:25: the barriers, et cetera, through the work with the partners. Okay. And then we bring the business

00:14:30: boys that testimony, those lessons learned, that ambition to policymakers through advocacy.

00:14:35: We tell them, okay, you know, you need to be more ambitious. Your NDCs need to be aligned.

00:14:40: And need to be investable. You need to have this kind of policies that will help to unlock

00:14:45: some of the barriers, et cetera. And then finally, is accountability is again, report progress,

00:14:51: report your emissions, report your participation. So it's one important thing that we launched a

00:14:57: couple of years ago that is taking out of momentum is companies need to be consistent in how they

00:15:03: talk to policymakers, they do policy advocacy and loving. And so it doesn't work if a company has

00:15:11: an SBTI target, but they are looking for policies that will go against the achievement of that

00:15:17: target because there's no consistency and coherence. You know, we call on governments to be

00:15:22: coherent. So business need to also be coherent. And that's what we call responsible policy

00:15:26: engagement. And we ask companies to report on what are the position of the different

00:15:33: trade associations and industry groups and loving group regarding climate change so that we

00:15:39: drive alignment. The serious thing important, the key word is alignment. It doesn't work if we have

00:15:46: different rules in different geographies, in different sectors, creating, you know,

00:15:54: when avoiding any kind of level playing field, business wants to play by the rules.

00:16:00: If they want to have transparency on those rules, and that will allow them to go much farther.

00:16:04: And that's why it's important that alignment and policy drive.

00:16:09: Yeah. And you, of course, have been also involved, of course, in with the International

00:16:16: Sustainability Standards Board, who helped to create this one language, if you want, right?

00:16:23: What was the coalition's involvement in that?

00:16:26: Well, we have been actively supporting them and participating in the different working groups.

00:16:34: Our partner, CDP, is the key partner that is working with them in ensuring alignment and ensuring

00:16:39: that both the CDP questioner and what it is being asked is aligned and interoperable.

00:16:46: Is is it's it's it's really important. It's important to have a global baseline, something that,

00:16:53: you know, at least all governments, all countries will apply to so that then companies can report

00:17:00: the emissions in a similar way in different geographies. And then it can be comparable.

00:17:06: So I know you had in previous chapters Emmanuel Faber. So I'm sure he will explain it in full

00:17:12: detail then. Yeah, yeah, no, it was wonderful. And it struck me at the time he was saying one thing

00:17:18: that we all have to learn a new economic language together. And that is if you are open and willing

00:17:30: to learn and you understand the context, of course, then it's a given. But if you're not,

00:17:37: it is a major barrier. How do you experience that this learning this new economic language?

00:17:46: How do companies react when you first talk to them?

00:17:50: Well, I agree with Emmanuel. That is a new language. And one, you know, it's like the financial

00:17:59: statements, it took, I think about 100 years to do them. And we want to do the environmental

00:18:06: standards in 10 years or 20 years. So it is normal that it's difficult. It's also very difficult

00:18:14: to do them. It is also very difficult to have a good understanding of your footprint as a company,

00:18:20: especially those that have very low supply chains. But I always say the same, you know,

00:18:27: if you want to manage, you need to measure. So start by measuring and then suddenly you will

00:18:32: start to reap the benefits of that measurement. Because if you reduce emissions, you're reducing

00:18:39: costs most of the time. And there is an incredible potential to do so. So it is, you know, it is

00:18:48: inevitably in the journey of any business, big and small, to measure emissions, to report them

00:18:56: according to the regulations. And yes, at the beginning is hard, like for you and for me,

00:19:02: you know, when we need to do something new, it's not easy. But luckily,

00:19:08: they're not going to be the first companies to do it, right? So there's been a lot of companies

00:19:13: that have been doing it for a while that can share their learnings. And so we're not started at zero,

00:19:18: we're starting maybe at 20 and we need to get to 100. But there is a lot of learnings.

00:19:23: So to those companies, I say, yeah, talk to others, speak with your different trade

00:19:31: associations and governments peers, because there is an interest from any business that

00:19:40: every business does account their emissions, because we're all, all businesses are part of

00:19:49: someone else's supply chain business. And because companies commit to reduce the scope three emissions,

00:19:55: they need others to report emissions and to reduce them. And so this is a fantastic place to

00:20:01: collaborate on one that is a win-win for others. Yeah, for everybody.

00:20:05: Yeah. And Maria, we were just talking about it just before we started the interview. You were also

00:20:13: managing director of one of your current partners right now, the World Business Council for Sustainable

00:20:20: Development. And if one takes a very good look into this organization, it is quite something here.

00:20:26: It's a global community of 230 of the world's leading businesses representing a combined revenue

00:20:35: of more than $8.5 trillion. Talk to me a bit about it.

00:20:41: Well, it's an organization that I love because I spent 12 years working with them. And that's

00:20:47: where I have matured professionally. And it has an incredible leader, Peter Packard,

00:20:53: with whom I work very closely and continue to work because he now sits in the board of women

00:20:57: business. Peter has completely transformed the organization in the past years and

00:21:04: re-transformed and transformed and his ability to look at the future and to respond to with what is

00:21:12: needed from the business community is very visionary and advanced. The World Business Council

00:21:20: for Sustainable Development works in different pathways. So they work with companies on how to

00:21:26: transform the energy system, transport, industry, buildings, nature, agriculture, food in a way

00:21:35: that is so profound deep of understanding. It is business. So it's not a thing. It's the business

00:21:41: community sharing everything that they know for this public good in terms of climate action,

00:21:48: plastics, social equity, issues that are more transversal. They also have a lot of activities.

00:21:57: We also, when I was there, created a women program. They do some education courses for

00:22:02: leading women, which is amazing. And you name it, it's a global economy in education. I think there

00:22:10: are the forefront of many of these aspects and it is an invaluable player. And most of the things

00:22:20: that they do are public. And so I invite everybody that is listening to go to the website and learn

00:22:27: because there's so much to be learned and so much to see this continuous transformation that the

00:22:34: sustainable world is going through that is very well represented by him, by Peter, but also the

00:22:42: organization and it's incredible, my former colleagues. Now World Business Council also

00:22:48: created some regional chapters. And those are run by people from the country. For example,

00:22:57: yesterday I spoke to Cebedez, which is the Brazilian Business Council for Sustainable

00:23:02: Development. As you know, I know them Marina, the president for many years and they are mobilizing

00:23:09: the Brazilian business actors to support COP30 and its success. Fantastic. There is another one

00:23:17: in Australia in many Latin American countries. So what they do globally, then it is translated

00:23:23: to that local level, to the local reality. And so it creates a tissue of business working on

00:23:32: sustainability both at global and local level. That is very influential and interesting.

00:23:37: You were talking a bit about ambition of companies, but it takes also personal

00:23:45: ambition to make that journey. So I said in the introduction already that you were named

00:23:51: one of times 100 most influential climate leaders in business. Congratulations, by the way. So what

00:24:01: took you there? When did you realize there is more to life than just going to work?

00:24:08: Yeah, thank you. So I think everybody has some sort of personal journey into this. I mean, for me,

00:24:16: since I joined the World Business Council, it was very clear and I have a strong belief on the power

00:24:22: of business to drive positive change. And both there and now at the coalition, this is what we are

00:24:31: driving for and empowering. I also come to this with a huge sense of responsibility,

00:24:38: like you and like many other leaders. When you are in a position that you can influence,

00:24:46: you need to take that with a lot of responsibility. And so I think, and in many aspects,

00:24:56: I will never say no to a new idea and see where it can bring us if that's going to

00:25:02: drive for this shared and common good and to advance both sustainability and climate change.

00:25:09: I think the people like us, like you, Sivilmi and many others that you have had in this podcast,

00:25:16: it takes a lot of resilience as well. Because let's face it, climate change is not being solved

00:25:22: and emissions continue to grow. Temperatures continue to increase and it's hard. And so it also takes a

00:25:31: huge amount of resilience and resistance and keep going. And then when you look back, then you realize,

00:25:39: wow, it's incredible, the amount of things that happen. If you look in one moment,

00:25:45: it might be frustrated. But if you look in the past 10 years, you say, well, there was no company

00:25:50: that had targets aligned with net zero, 1.5. Now, there are 17,000 companies. Okay, wow. And they are,

00:25:59: I think, half of the world market cap. Okay, well, that's a big achievement. Now we need to see that

00:26:05: in emission reductions, of course. And then we just saw some numbers that companies that have

00:26:13: science-based targets, reduce maybe four percentage points, more emissions than other companies. So

00:26:22: in other words, if you don't have a science-based target, your emissions have probably increased

00:26:26: by 2%. If you have science-based targets, your emissions have reduced at least 2% to 4%. Okay.

00:26:33: So then you say, okay, well, yeah, what we're doing, it's having an impact. But yeah, when you see the

00:26:39: catastrophes, the fires, the droughts, migration, it's really difficult to see that we need to do

00:26:48: more. And we need many more like you and me to join us in this moment. Yeah, many more. And since

00:26:55: you go into this area now, maybe we can spend a bit of time about talking the major barriers

00:27:02: of change, which you encountered. Yeah, well, there are many. Let's say, yeah, let's take now

00:27:15: something from your country, electric vehicles. So I think many more people should have electric

00:27:27: vehicles because they are very, very efficient and competitive. And the prices are starting to be

00:27:35: similar to cars, even better than hybrid cars. I have one, you know, I spent one third of euros

00:27:45: in terms of the energy that the car uses and the driving, it's amazing. But we're stuck. And there is

00:27:55: this year of the anxiety range, even if my car, I don't need to charge it at home and I don't

00:28:03: need to charge it once a week at home. So I don't need to go to the gas station. But people say,

00:28:08: yeah, what am I going to do? And when I'm going to charge, and then when I go to a place, well,

00:28:12: when you go to that place, it's once a year and then you figure that out. But that shouldn't be

00:28:17: the barrier. So I think moving people and changing the mindset, it's very important. Now, with that

00:28:24: same example, we need more infrastructure for recharging. Okay, so people have that anxiety

00:28:30: and they see that that works. And then the last point, which is one that, you know, you probably

00:28:36: have seen, I have seen it, is the level of this information that is out there is incredible,

00:28:41: that is driven by certain actors that do not want electric vehicles to succeed. So electric vehicles,

00:28:48: they burn, you know, their life cycle emissions are worse, all that is not true. That it may,

00:28:55: it makes the headlines. And then it kind of reinforces this sentiment, no, no, I'm not going

00:29:00: to go electric, I'll continue with hybrid. So, but then moving to more to the business side.

00:29:06: So, so permitting is a huge issue. So it takes three, four years to put, I don't know,

00:29:15: a wind park. That's unacceptable, unacceptable. It takes that long, really.

00:29:22: Yeah, yeah. And then there is so that's a huge issue. Then in supporting infrastructure, so

00:29:33: that's more mainly in developing countries, yes, you can put they have a lot of, you know, solar

00:29:37: capacity, you know, they can put a lot of solar capacity. But if there is not a grid infrastructure

00:29:41: that provides backup power, then then it is not a viable to move there. And then, you know,

00:29:48: companies prefer to use these generators that are more reliable. So, so at the different levels,

00:29:55: mindset in red tape, and big investments in infrastructure are some of the big barriers

00:30:03: that we face. Then there are technologies like green hydrogen that are very expensive.

00:30:09: And so for those we need police interventions like we did like we saw with solar PV,

00:30:14: back in the year 2000 with a strong subsidy by governments, so that those companies they learn,

00:30:21: they reduce the cost, they take economies of scales, they reduce part of the cost, and then

00:30:25: they become more competitive.

00:30:27: and companies can use it.

00:30:29: You have not mentioned finance.

00:30:35: It's quite interesting because if you talk often, you know, investors say,

00:30:44: "No, there's money, there's no bankable projects."

00:30:47: And companies say, "No one wants to fund my project."

00:30:51: No?

00:30:52: So I don't come from that world, but I was talking to a big company

00:30:58: in the fashion industry and they were telling me this week,

00:31:01: and they were telling me that, you know, when they talk to their suppliers

00:31:04: in developing countries about the need to integrate renewables in their plans,

00:31:08: for example, the question that the suppliers are asking is,

00:31:12: "Can you help me do it?"

00:31:13: Because I don't know how to do it.

00:31:15: It's not, yeah, give me more money to do it.

00:31:19: OK, because if this big fashion company is asking, you know,

00:31:25: a supplier to do that, they will buy the product from the supplier.

00:31:29: And that for them is the biggest, the best finance that they can get

00:31:33: because they will sell their product to it.

00:31:35: And that, of course, financing large infrastructures in developing countries

00:31:41: is fundamental.

00:31:42: And in developing countries, the country risk is very high.

00:31:47: And the multilateral development banks, the World Bank and others,

00:31:50: you know, need to make an effort in reducing those risk premiums,

00:31:55: country risk premiums, so that then business and other institutions

00:31:59: can invest in those countries.

00:32:01: So yes, it is a big issue, but not always.

00:32:04: Yeah, Maria, because you mentioned the car industry specifically

00:32:11: in my country, Germany.

00:32:14: A short episode, I remember speaking to a group of German business leaders

00:32:21: around 2018, I just came back from London equipped with the Financial Times

00:32:27: and the latest article about the car industry.

00:32:33: And they talked about the how does the car of the future looks like.

00:32:37: And they had many ideas, you know, batteries clearly and these and that.

00:32:43: And the essence was they were saying, we don't know how the car of the future

00:32:49: looks like.

00:32:51: But what we do know for sure is the car won't come out of Germany.

00:32:57: So you can imagine in front of those people, they looked at me with horror.

00:33:06: And I did some research into lobbyism of major industry leaders.

00:33:15: So I wondered today, should we have targeted those directly and earlier?

00:33:22: And the other question would be, would they have listened or be to whom would

00:33:28: they have listened to?

00:33:29: What's your experience?

00:33:32: Yeah, well, first, you know, let's all assume, you know, really positive intent.

00:33:38: So there are great people working in these companies that are trying their best.

00:33:42: But sometimes they don't see the way forward.

00:33:44: OK, now I find that the European car industry has been dragging their feet,

00:33:51: which meant that then the Chinese and the Chinese industry has accelerated

00:33:59: to the point that now they sell very competitive cars.

00:34:03: And, you know, and I look forward to seeing them in the market because they

00:34:07: will be cheaper, more competitive, more reliable, fantastic batteries.

00:34:12: They're really good because they took it seriously.

00:34:15: Now, to the point that now Europe needs to learn from China.

00:34:19: And so China is not any more the one that was coping is I think rather it would

00:34:23: happen the other way around.

00:34:25: Now, it is true that the European industry, on the other hand, has not had

00:34:33: the support from the governments that the Chinese have given to their industries.

00:34:38: And so in Europe, the approach has been, let me regulate, let me put targets.

00:34:44: Let me, you know, the sticks, I would say sticks and carols.

00:34:47: So there's a lot of sticks.

00:34:48: The Americans, it's all about carols.

00:34:50: And I think the Chinese is both.

00:34:52: OK, and so a little bit more of carols, you know, would help the industry.

00:34:58: And I'm a holistic industry strategy for the automotive industry would help.

00:35:04: Now, coming with tariffs.

00:35:06: Now, at last minute, fast.

00:35:08: Yeah, it sounds a bit, you know, a last minute decision, you know, and

00:35:14: that's a result decision.

00:35:15: And it's very unfortunate.

00:35:16: I would rather see, you know, a strong industry that emerges that one that

00:35:21: is very focused on what the future of the car it is, which means that we need

00:35:27: to invest in such infrastructure.

00:35:30: We need to change the mindset of people.

00:35:31: We need to to increase the sales of electric vehicles, publicize them more,

00:35:38: et cetera.

00:35:40: So so I think it's a lesson learned from the industry, because you talk to

00:35:45: any of the executives of the industry, you tell them, you know, how do you think

00:35:48: they call into the 35 is going to be in the states electric.

00:35:51: So then if you know that it's going to electric, why don't you go

00:35:54: a thousand percent to be electric?

00:35:56: No, just in case, et cetera.

00:35:58: And so so, yeah, I, you know, I understand the level of caution as I

00:36:04: understand that there hasn't been that much support, but still Tesla went all the way.

00:36:08: And here we are.

00:36:11: Now, a positive news that I read this summer.

00:36:13: Yes, BMW has sold more electric vehicles in Europe.

00:36:18: I think that Tesla, which was probably the one that was selling the most.

00:36:21: So it's not all, you know, very good.

00:36:25: But very good.

00:36:27: Yeah, yeah.

00:36:28: And I think there are also the countries here in the north, of course,

00:36:31: who don't have a car industry like I can't remember was it Sweden?

00:36:36: I think it was Sweden who sells now more electric cars than old combustion cars.

00:36:44: And of course, China as well sells now more electric cars than old cars.

00:36:50: So that is a major change, right?

00:36:53: And it's so fast.

00:36:54: It is fantastic.

00:36:57: I think it's Norway.

00:36:58: The example that you refer to, and yes, because it's it's all electric.

00:37:05: Why? Because they gave a lot of incentives.

00:37:07: So, you know, pay taxes, you can go and park in the city, you know,

00:37:11: their registration taxes much reduced.

00:37:14: And that meant that then all the car manufacturers are starting to sell

00:37:18: electric vehicles in Norway.

00:37:20: So it is true that, you know, that that incentive, you know, has created, you know,

00:37:26: yeah, and they did it in 10 years.

00:37:29: 10 years is not so.

00:37:32: So the transformation in the car industry can go really fast.

00:37:35: All the sectors, it takes longer because of the stock, you know,

00:37:39: a replacement that in the industry it has.

00:37:43: But I can say as a user of an electric vehicle, you know, and every time I talk

00:37:48: about it, I go to the app of my car and call there.

00:37:52: I have only, you know, since March, you know, it cost me the energy 200 francs.

00:37:57: Yeah, if I would have had an internal combustion engine, it would have been 800.

00:38:03: So, yeah, yeah, I absolutely agree with you here.

00:38:08: And I have an electric car, I think for the last six years.

00:38:12: And it's been a dream.

00:38:15: It starts with a community first.

00:38:17: I remember we were driving over the Alps and there were a few stations where you

00:38:21: could do quick charging and people were starting talking to each other.

00:38:26: So all the new things create also new kind of communities.

00:38:31: Let's go because you talked about it now, the role of technology.

00:38:39: How strong do you see all these emerging technologies?

00:38:48: I mean, AI, blockchain, etc.

00:38:51: They play already a major role.

00:38:55: What's your idea of how it will work out in the next 10 years?

00:39:02: So obviously, I'm a little bit worried of the amount of energy they consume.

00:39:07: And so I think the industry needs to, you know, to rationalize the use of AI

00:39:13: for whatever is important and accelerate the decarbonization,

00:39:18: the efficiency of it and the decarbonization, because, you know,

00:39:22: the industry has done great progress and suddenly in a year or two,

00:39:26: it's a mission to skyrocket in and it's a disaster.

00:39:29: So there's a lot to be done there.

00:39:31: But I think everything that has to do with digitalization

00:39:35: and the power of AI to track emissions and also to disseminate education

00:39:42: and ways of solving problems is so powerful and so important for climate.

00:39:48: And I'm quite impressed on how much efficiencies can be achieved by companies

00:39:57: when using these instruments to manage their stock,

00:40:00: to manage them, you know, how they use transportation to manage the different routes.

00:40:09: And so what is important that in all of them, they integrate sustainability elements

00:40:15: and ways to reduce emissions, because, for example,

00:40:20: Google can give you the route where you will consume less energy.

00:40:24: Right?

00:40:25: It is, yeah, I think there's plenty of opportunities.

00:40:30: Which are wind-winds, you know, reduce emissions, reduce costs, as I said before.

00:40:34: But yeah, be careful with how AI is deployed, you know,

00:40:40: and so that it is deployed for the right uses,

00:40:42: because it requires a lot of energy as well.

00:40:45: And in the spirit of collaboration, we have New York Climate Week this month

00:40:54: and COP29 in Baku is coming up, I think in November.

00:40:59: What are your expectations?

00:41:02: Well, I think Climate Week is going to be quite interesting.

00:41:09: The climate journey is very influenced by what is happening in the governments,

00:41:15: the politics of the countries.

00:41:17: And so we were a little bit afraid with the European Union elections

00:41:22: and then with France, and I think things more or less are, you know, coming to terms.

00:41:27: And we're very hopeful on what we've seen in the UK with the new government

00:41:31: and increased ambition.

00:41:33: And I'm convinced that also Brazil is going to do a fantastic job for setting an NDC

00:41:39: at the ambition level.

00:41:41: The NDC is the national emission reduction plan

00:41:44: that the countries need to present for next spring.

00:41:48: And I think they will going to set the example that's presented in a very ambitious one.

00:41:54: So I think for Baku, it's, yeah, it's let's see what we can achieve.

00:42:01: But the reality is that Baku was not even on the line to prepare the conference.

00:42:07: And it was a political compromise to do it there.

00:42:09: So I feel for the Baku team, that's why they need to organize this big, big conference

00:42:16: when they have not been in the past so active in doing so.

00:42:20: And also because we have the elections in the US right at the time of COP 29.

00:42:25: So for political reasons, this COP, I think, is going to be, you know, not, you know, as

00:42:31: as as strong as last year in Dubai.

00:42:36: And next year, the COP 30 is really important because that's when the new NDCs are presented.

00:42:40: And now what we need is that those national plans are more ambitious,

00:42:46: that we reduce the gap that exists between the current NDCs.

00:42:50: And the 1.5 gold.

00:42:52: And that also those NDCs are more mature because this is the second or third time that countries do them.

00:42:59: And so they need to include a policy framework that will go along that ambition.

00:43:05: So because we need rules, policies, incentives, carbon pricing, removal of subsidies to fossil fuel.

00:43:14: A very clear introduction on phase out dates for fossil fuel uses in different sectors

00:43:20: in a way that we have not seen before.

00:43:23: So I think the policymakers need to learn and be more ambitious.

00:43:27: And the business community is going to push for that.

00:43:29: And through women business and our partners, we're going to push for NDCs to be investable

00:43:34: for the policy framework to contain certain elements.

00:43:37: Importantly, as I repeat, fossil fuel phase out dates.

00:43:42: So it is not tomorrow, but from now until 2040, 2050, there needs to be planned to replace those fossil fuels

00:43:50: by renewable energy, energy efficient measures, etc.

00:43:54: And the halting and reversing deforestation and forest degradation.

00:43:58: This is also a place we tend to talk more about energy, but land represents 30% of emissions.

00:44:06: It's only going to increase if we don't tackle it.

00:44:09: We need to stop deforestation and degradation.

00:44:12: And then we need to also reinvest in nature.

00:44:16: It is a very important part of the work we do as well.

00:44:19: I'm grateful that you've mentioned the fossil fuel dependency.

00:44:24: Because we have, of course, extreme numbers are existing.

00:44:32: You have on the one side the profit in the oil industry.

00:44:38: It's the profit of a lifetime.

00:44:41: I mean, they have a very good time.

00:44:43: You have on the other hand, the IEA who said years ago, we shouldn't exploit any more fossil fuels.

00:44:55: We should leave the earth alone.

00:44:59: And in between are many organizations, companies, governments who try their best.

00:45:07: What is your approach?

00:45:11: So last year we created this campaign, which is called fossil to clean.

00:45:17: The idea that we need to transition from fossil to clean.

00:45:22: If we want to address climate change, we need to stop burning fossil fuels.

00:45:27: And because we are so dependent on them, we need to create a pathway to reduce that dependency

00:45:33: and to replace it by fossil fuels.

00:45:35: A sister campaign was the tripling of renewables and doubling of energy efficiency,

00:45:42: which was really successful as well.

00:45:43: And we are a partner of which meant, OK, we need to triple renewable, double energy efficiency.

00:45:48: And I think they're talking about multiplying by five, I think, energy storage,

00:45:53: so which is new.

00:45:55: This is being developed as we speak, really interesting developments there.

00:45:58: So in our perspective, we say, OK, well, this is great.

00:46:03: But you know, what does it mean for companies?

00:46:05: So then we went to the different companies.

00:46:07: So if you are a company that is demanding fossil fuels,

00:46:12: you need to create a plan on how you're going to stop consuming them

00:46:17: and replace them by clean sources from now until 2040.

00:46:21: If you are an investor, you need to change your investment ratios.

00:46:25: Now it is likely now we have increased.

00:46:27: It used to be much more investment in fossil fuel and renewables.

00:46:31: Then it was one to one.

00:46:33: And now I think last year was two to one.

00:46:35: So we invest two million on renewables and one on fossil fuel.

00:46:39: OK, I mean, that proportion.

00:46:40: OK, well, it needs to be according to I think it is four to one.

00:46:46: OK, for in clean energy, nothing

00:46:50: including energy efficiency, including energy efficiency, I think it's 71.

00:46:53: In clean energy, four and one, because you need to maintain

00:46:57: some of the investments or for operational purposes

00:47:01: of the existing fossil fuel in asset.

00:47:04: And then if you are a fossil fuel producer,

00:47:08: and this is the toughest part, you also need to transition

00:47:11: from fossil to clean.

00:47:13: So you need to stop new exploration, that for sure.

00:47:18: And then you need to create a plan on how you're going to be facing out

00:47:22: your plans and replacing the renewables of whatever

00:47:25: as an industry you want to.

00:47:27: Obviously, you know, there was no oil and gas company that signed our campaign.

00:47:32: But we have quite a lot of companies that did sign from the demand side.

00:47:37: And I think many support from the investor side that we focus more on that demand side

00:47:42: because at the end, if the demand decreases, then production will decrease.

00:47:46: But on the other hand, that's not enough.

00:47:49: Because what I'm very worried is that the oil and gas industry

00:47:54: is investing in Africa and in developing countries.

00:47:57: Large amount of infrastructure that will lock the country to fossil fuel.

00:48:03: You know, if we want to help Africa, we need to invest in clean energy.

00:48:07: We don't want to to invest in an energy source that will be banned at some point.

00:48:16: Yeah, well, hoping for the governments to do something about it.

00:48:18: I don't know if you're in charge, if you've been elected for a couple of years

00:48:22: or four or five years.

00:48:23: I'm yeah, I was when you were talking, I thought.

00:48:27: What would it help the planet?

00:48:32: Let's say if we declare a kind of emergency for the planet.

00:48:38: And who could do that?

00:48:40: Or is it an illusion?

00:48:43: No, but I think, you know, inevitably, you know, if we continue to not tackle

00:48:47: climate change, temperatures continue to rise.

00:48:49: There's going to be the amount of of extreme weather events is going to increase.

00:48:55: The economic losses are going to skyrocket.

00:48:58: And there's going to be a point when the government will say, well,

00:49:02: this is like a global emergency like a COVID emergency, which requires

00:49:09: drastic action because in solving climate change, you know, it's about,

00:49:14: you know, putting more money on the table as well, because the technologies are

00:49:18: available, just that some are very expensive.

00:49:20: And so when we saw COVID, there were some very strong restrictions

00:49:26: and a lot of money that was put to the development of solutions.

00:49:29: So so I can I can I can envisage that in the future this can happen.

00:49:33: It would be very traumatic and dramatic.

00:49:35: That's why we need to work so so that we can transition in the most

00:49:41: orderly way as possible to that.

00:49:44: But I do think that it could be inevitable at some point.

00:49:49: The other thing that we haven't spoken is about the need to capture CO2 as well.

00:49:53: Yeah. So now the emergency is to capture.

00:49:55: Of course, you can forest the capture in the forest and we are pushing for that.

00:49:59: But it has some limitations in terms of leakage and permanence, etc.

00:50:04: And then there is some technological

00:50:06: development in that sense that are very expensive.

00:50:10: But I can envisage in the future that it will be mandatory to

00:50:15: to also reduce and remove emissions from the atmosphere.

00:50:21: And in the IPCC models, that's what it says.

00:50:24: You know, at the end, if you see the graphs, everything that is underneath

00:50:27: is it is about removal.

00:50:29: So and nature can do certain parts, but we will need others.

00:50:33: So I think that that is inevitable.

00:50:36: It's just it's all about timing, would be in the next 10 years, 20 years.

00:50:42: But for sure, that we will see before 2050.

00:50:45: Yeah. What strikes me here, Maria, you work with the most

00:50:50: influential organizations and companies like Mkhani's G-Fans,

00:50:57: the World Economic Forum, UNICEF, AFRAC, World Bank and so on.

00:51:01: So it's the who is who in the whole climate business.

00:51:04: But then there is the effort.

00:51:07: We have the results.

00:51:10: We see change.

00:51:11: We have many good examples, as we just heard from you.

00:51:14: And yet they don't find their way into the mainstream media.

00:51:21: Yes, selective into probably Bloomberg Time Magazine and Fortune 500.

00:51:31: But worse, they hardly find their way.

00:51:37: To the average citizen.

00:51:40: I think you're touching on a very relevant and sensitive topic.

00:51:45: Yeah, because

00:51:48: unfortunately, some of the headlines, you know, focus more on greenwashing

00:51:53: you know, of companies than actually on what companies are doing.

00:51:59: And I think we need to change that because

00:52:01: in, you know, it is not easy what we're trying to do here, right?

00:52:07: What the companies are trying to do, you know, to map all their supply chains,

00:52:12: emissions, when they don't even know the names of the suppliers sometimes.

00:52:17: Or are they located to invest in technologies that are completely

00:52:22: new, that can succeed or not to invest in technologies that are not competitive,

00:52:27: but that you know that you need to invest so that you can learn.

00:52:30: So you're going to lose a lot of money.

00:52:31: You go to the board and convince your board to invest or to set that target

00:52:37: when you don't know the rules on how you're going to report on it.

00:52:40: So so I think the level of ambition of many companies and

00:52:45: and the level of, you know, trust in the system has to be very high.

00:52:51: But then then in return, you know, some of these companies are accused,

00:52:54: I don't know, with false allegations or other times good allegations, right?

00:53:01: So I tend to say that, you know, it would be good if journalism,

00:53:05: you know, instead of focusing on those that are doing something

00:53:08: but not doing it perfectly, you know, instead of focusing on those

00:53:12: that have big names and big brand names, OK, which are trying to say no.

00:53:16: That's that they are honestly trying to do something good

00:53:21: that might not be perfect or not of the liking of some.

00:53:24: Instead of that, why don't we focus on putting pressure on the laggards

00:53:28: on those that are not doing anything?

00:53:30: Because in our network, we have these 70,000 companies, OK?

00:53:34: There are millions of companies that are not doing anything

00:53:38: or maybe they are doing things that we don't know, right?

00:53:40: I think the emphasis needs to be on those that are not taking responsibility

00:53:44: and doing what is required for them, you know, at this moment in time.

00:53:49: If we look beyond 2030 regarding your work and the work of all your partners,

00:53:55: who else needs to be brought into the boat?

00:53:59: And where does it need more ambition and action?

00:54:05: Well, I think.

00:54:08: There are many boats to be brought.

00:54:11: And there are many many boats being also quite filled with people.

00:54:16: And I find that it would be good to have more alignment across the different boats

00:54:21: so that we go in the same direction, because also sometimes the efforts

00:54:26: are quite fragmented as to to bring a coherence in the different systems.

00:54:32: For example, central government and local governments need to be more aligned.

00:54:36: Unfortunately, sometimes if there are different parties, they are not so aligned.

00:54:39: I think we just also again, elevate ourselves.

00:54:42: What is the bigger bigger good?

00:54:43: This is good for every political party, every ideology.

00:54:47: You know, this is good for your people.

00:54:48: And I think, you know, as you said, this is very complex.

00:54:53: You know, even those companies that invest a lot of time, knowledge, etc.

00:54:57: They still have to the to the end of knowledge, right?

00:55:01: They are in every day.

00:55:03: And so let's let's take that approach and learn.

00:55:08: And and as as communicators, you know, as as the ones that we are

00:55:12: carrying the message, let's also simplify the message so that

00:55:16: people can understand the complexity in ways that they can understand.

00:55:21: And so more alignment, more ambition, more clear rules.

00:55:29: I think those are key ingredients for success.

00:55:33: Let's say one of those many companies out there

00:55:41: have listened to that now, but they haven't been involved in anything.

00:55:44: But they do know that they have to in the near future.

00:55:48: What what's your advice should be their first steps?

00:55:52: Let's say it's a small to medium sized company.

00:55:54: Well, go to the SME climate.

00:55:57: It's very upgraded.

00:56:00: Sorry for the publicity.

00:56:01: Seriously. So as an SME, you know, first, you know,

00:56:05: trying to measure your emissions, there's plenty of calculators out there.

00:56:09: Now, there are many education tools that will help you, you know,

00:56:12: get the knowledge to understand what you need to do.

00:56:15: Then talk to your peers and talk to your clients to see what they need

00:56:20: and to adapt in and do the numbers because often some of these investments

00:56:26: are, you know, have a very positive feedback period.

00:56:30: I think once you do that, then raise your voice, you know, talk to others,

00:56:36: explain and become an advocate and mobilize others to do the same.

00:56:40: Because as I said before, it's not about one company doing something.

00:56:45: We need millions of companies and we need to have some peer pressure

00:56:50: and peer support in the journey.

00:56:54: And then speak, you know, and present your case

00:57:00: and so that others can learn and be motivated to act.

00:57:06: You quite rightly said, Maria, we need millions of companies to join.

00:57:10: So what does it mean for your road ahead in the short term

00:57:17: as well as in the long term?

00:57:19: Yes. So I think.

00:57:22: It's going to be.

00:57:26: Yeah, it's going to be a bumpy road.

00:57:28: But definitely, I think the direction of travel is very clear.

00:57:31: So so I think they compromise the agreement, the previous agreement.

00:57:36: And the subsequent steps in the in that direction of

00:57:39: of keeping temperature, you know, as close as possible to one point five.

00:57:44: And it's it's still very valid.

00:57:48: You know, we are seeing growth in terms of commitment of 100 percent growth

00:57:53: every year.

00:57:54: Companies are being asked by regulators to report their emissions and to act upon them.

00:57:59: Companies that reduce their emissions are going to be valued more positively

00:58:03: and will receive loans at better interest rates.

00:58:07: We have seen that this is already happening.

00:58:09: So I think the direction of travel is inevitable.

00:58:12: We're going in that direction.

00:58:14: The sooner companies join the both the better.

00:58:18: And that will then unlock an incredible wave of innovation and new business

00:58:23: opportunity. OK.

00:58:25: So I say that there are three important

00:58:27: message messages for the next few years.

00:58:32: One is responsibility, you know, every one of us and every business

00:58:38: has the responsibility to do less harm to reduce emissions

00:58:43: and and and to all the things also in relation to sustainability.

00:58:47: The second one is opportunity.

00:58:49: We are seeing the reduction of cost of renewable energy of electric vehicles

00:58:55: of batteries and so on.

00:58:57: And the third one is the risk of not doing anything.

00:59:01: And the fourth one is the risk of not doing anything.

00:59:05: The risk of not doing anything is enormous.

00:59:10: The impact that this is going to have on your employees, on your families,

00:59:14: on the communities where you operate on migration, it's enormous.

00:59:19: And so so so we need to to do and to act responsibly now.

00:59:26: And don't wait because later is too late.

00:59:29: We need to act responsibly now.

00:59:33: I think on this note, I think I want to say thank you very much,

00:59:39: Maria, for this very, very interesting hour.

00:59:43: And please, if we haven't covered anything yet, what is close to your heart,

00:59:50: please use now the last minute or so to do this.

00:59:55: Otherwise, I'm very grateful if you do fantastic work with all your partners.

01:00:02: And we wish you much success.

01:00:05: Well, thanks to you and the fantastic podcast that you are creating.

01:00:10: And yeah, let's let's make the positive voice be heard to a widely across the world

01:00:18: because we need everybody on this journey.

01:00:20: Thank you.

01:00:21: You've been listening to a special English edition of Degorsa Neustadt,

01:00:26: a German podcast series by Zabilla Barton,

01:00:29: in which she talks to pioneering leaders who are committed to making our world

01:00:34: smarter, greener and fairer.

01:00:36: For more information, please visit www.zabillabardon.com

01:00:42: and the official site of the World Economic Forum.

01:00:46: [Music]

01:00:51: (gentle music)